“In God We Trust”
This statement became our countries motto in the 1956. It was made law. Did you know that? “In God We Trust” is our countries motto. Decided by congress. It acknowledges that there is accountability to God. That our country, in conscience, agrees that “we trust God”.
Do you believe that?
I watched the most recent message from Andy Stanley of North Point Church last night.
“In Search Of A Conscience”. It is a part of their new series God & Country.
Here is the premise. Our country was founded by a vast groups of people and beliefs. There is no arguing that. But in this midst of that was a conscience. A conscience that said, there is a God, “a creator”, and because this God values us, we value, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Some look back in our history and see an awful country. One who promoted slavery. One who discriminated against women. I look back and see a country that abolished slavery and sees woman as an equal with all men. Don’t get me wrong. I know there are people who still hold women and cultures in restraint, but I don’t believe we as a country do. We as a country believe that those things are wrong and have changed our laws to prove that.
So take a moment. Listen to this message from Andy Stanley. It is about 40 minutes. Let me know what you think.
Maybe I’m the only one, but I couldn’t access the message through either of your links here, but could by going to http://www.northpoint.org/messages
I can’t listen to it right now, but will tomorrow AM and get back to you about it then.
I do agree with your post comments already though, especially:
“I look back and see a country that abolished slavery and sees woman as an equal with all men.”
Change is slow and hard, but as long as there are people who have the courage and conviction to act on the truth they already know, the ‘truth that sets free’ will eventually win out.
I’m reading a book right now to my Dad “Same kind of Different as Me” by Ron Hall and Denver Moore, that illustrates that kind of slow process, but even in the 50’s and 60’s in the South there were still people like my Dad who saw ‘all men as created equal’!! Now, like then, WE need to have the courage to stand against the prejudices and injustices that still remain.
…And all that without listening to the message…think how wordy I may be after I do !!??
D-
Bummer. Sorry the links didn’t work. i think I got them fixed now.
“Now, like then, WE need to have the courage to stand against the prejudices and injustices that still remain.” Yes. And now, maybe even more than ever.
I’ll be anxious to hear your thoughts on Andy’s talk. Sounds like it is a 2 part message, so next week will be the conclusion.
Okay, I listened. The main thing that kept coming back to my mind was applying everything he said about our country to the church first.
If we who still call ourselves ‘God’s people’ (2 Chron. 7:14) don’t practice what we want our country to (trust in and obedience to God), it never will.
When, in the first few minutes, Andy described a ‘calloused conscience’, I thought of 1 Tim. 4 about people having ’seared consciences’ in the last days. Titus 1:15-16 also alludes to that. ‘Problem is the people referred to are said to have ‘abandoned the faith’(i.e once claimed to have it) or still ‘claim to know Him but deny it by the way they live’.
Is that not an indictment on US to be accountable to OUR OWN consciences that have been ‘informed’ by the Word of God?
If we’ve become ‘lax’ in our obedience to what we know to be right just because we can find others (even in positions of ’spiritual authority’) who will excuse our compromise, how are we any different than ’secular’ people who say something must be ‘right’ because the court system now says it is?
Just as our national conscience must be framed by personal accountability to God, so must the church’s. I think in many cases we have so ‘compartmentalized’ our Christian beliefs from our daily ‘walk’ that we have de-’centralized’ and distanced ourselves from God just as effectively as the world has.
Andy’s insight categorizing the ‘grateful and accountable’ vs. the ‘ungrateful and unaccountable’ can be paralleled to Romans 5:20-6 I think, and who was Paul writing that to?!
I really liked his closing question that I’ll look forward to hearing him expand on next week. I think it applies equally to ‘us’(professing Christians) as to ‘them’(the un’professing’):
“If our right to ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’ is tied to God, and we remove God, what is the new basis for that right?”
Challenging thoughts. Thanks for sharing his message. So what prompted you to listen to it?
D-
I’ll sneak it into my podcast list tomorrow @ work….
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I myself was disappointed in Part II of God and Country. Part I was right on target; Andy pointed out that “In God We Trust” is the national motto and that we have gotten away from it. I was amazed that only 1 person in 3 weeks knew this, based on Andy’s interaction. In my circle it is much higher.
What was disappointing is Andy stating that too many of “the rich” are hoarding money. He is misinformed here. The top 1 percent of taxpayers make 22 percent of the nations’s income, but pay 40 percent of the taxes. The top 25 percent of taxpayers, ranked by annual income, pay 85 percent of the taxes, and the top 50 percent of taxpayers pay 96 percent of the taxes. And on top of that, American corporations are certainly not hoarding money in that they pay the second highest corporate tax rates in the world.
The tax system is such that the bottom 50 percent wage earners, who pay a whopping 3 percent of the income taxes in this country, now vote for a living. That is, they vote for candidates that promise to raise taxes on “the rich” in return for more government benefits. These people are the ones showing true greed.
Additionally, the so called “rich” fund most of the nonprofit organizations in this country. The American people are far and away the most generous people in the world, as our levels of charitable giving dwarf that of any other nation.
Andy really should have denounced the class conflict being waged by the left, who constantly demonize the high wage earners who create jobs for everyone else. These people cannot be hoarding money, as the government is taking too much of their income for this to be an issue.
And as for the banking crisis we are in, if banks had hoarded more of their own funds and not been forced by the government to lower lending standards so people at the lower end of the economic scale could forego renting for home ownership, these subprime mortgages would have never happened and we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in right now.
Andy also made a refernce to how President Barack Hussein Obama said that the AIG executives “ought” to give back their bonuses. First, he made no mention of the $100k campaign contributions Obama received from AIG. Second, he made no mention of how Obama’s demonizing of these executives led to them receiving death threats from various thugs resentful of their successes. Finally, he made no mention that these executives had employment contracts with AIG, and that contracts should be honored and not backed out of just because of pressure from mob rule. If more executives performed as these did, AIG never would have gotten into the mess it is in now.
The final thing Andy missed is how the war on prosperity being waged by the left in this country is really based on good fashion greed and envy, and is unbiblical in that it is in direct conflict with the commandment about not coveting.
In short, Andy seemed to be somewhat caught up in the class conflict being waged in America and missed a golden opportunity to denounce it. Hopefully he will take feedback on this positively and use upcoming sermons to address the fact that the poor cannot be helped by tearing down the rich. Jesus never intended this to happen, but for us to lift up the poor, which the political left has no intention of doing.
Well, maybe I must missed it, but I didn’t see Part 2 as having much to do with ‘politics’ or ‘taking sides’ in any way. I think Andy did a good job of addressing the lack of ‘national conscience’ no matter which side of the fence you’re on – rich or poor. Either way, we can become so dependent on ourselves (whether it be wealth we have personally earned or feel entitled to receive from the government) that we can easily become arrogant and forget God.
That’s not at all to say the comment above is not valid, just not the direction I think Andy was emphasizing. I didn’t feel he was coming down on the ‘rich’ verses anyone else, but rather saying that we ALL need to keep God in the center of our conversation (backed by our lives, I’d add =) though still realizing people will always have the freedom NOT to believe. We have to give them that ‘right’ but not surrender ours to speak/live what we believe also. If we don’t the moral consequences will be devastating.
‘Just my perspective for what it’s worth.
D-
I think alot of people in this country are “missing it.” Whenever hatred is directed at the “haves” because of political activities on the part of politicians who stir up envy among the “have nots,” this is totally unbiblical. It goes back to “thall shall not covet.”
When politicians tell us “the rich” aren’t paying their fair share when in fact they are already taxed to the hilt, not only is this violating the commandment about coveting, it is also bearing false witness as well as stealing.
And “the rich” are an easy target. The left twists what Jesus says about helping the poor to justify targeting the rich. Jesus never said “soak the rich” to help the poor, he just said “help the poor.” After all, if the government directs hatred against the top 5 percent of income earners, as Obama did, then is it realistic to expect the bottom 95 percent of income earners, many of whom are jealous of the top earners, to come to their defense? This is the ultimate game of “divide and conquer” as played out by left-leaning political parties not just in the United States but in all countries. And of course politicians care not that these “soak the rich” policies lead ultimately to fewer resources to help the poor, just as long as they can claim they are helping the poor and get reelected.
I am concerned that too many on our side want to “reach out” and not take sides, but unfortunately the motivations of those on the left are such that we cannot afford for them to succeed. After all, those same people we are trying to reach out to want to deny tax exemptions for charitable contributions to churches, which would kill a church like Buckhead financially. These are the same people who want to put ministers in jail for “hate speech” for preaching faith-based sermons that don’t jive with their views on abortion, homosexuality, etc. This has happened in Canada and Sweden, and can happen here.
If you don’t believe it can happen here, no one believed gay marriage could ever happen in this country, and it is already happening in 4 states.
Jesus never hesitated to condemn evil, but sometimes I think we are more worried about “not taking sides” and being buddies with those who are evil than we are about taking a stand for what is right.
For the record, I am not “rich” nor am I in the top 5 percent. I just don’t like the way the current administration is whipping up people in a frenzy about “the rich” as a way to slam it’s policies down the throats of people who really don’t want them.
And by the way, I was somewhat suspicious of the timing of Andy’s message to coincide with the tea parties on April 15.
You seem to have a big issue with Obama and the “left”. I’d be more concerned with people’s actions that political party affiliation. Because there are crooks and liars all throughout our government.
For every concern you have issued, I can find a rich person to have a different opinion. You seem to be stirring up politics, liberal, conservative and God into one big pot. Can’t be done. God is not contained in some political opinion or stance. He is contained in the hearts of man.
If you truly want to “take a side” or stand for something, stop fighting against everything. We don’t take a stand by fighting against, we take a stand by fighting for.
I am not concerned about political party affiliation, just by the leftward drift of our country. I would love nothing better than for the Republicans and Democrats to argue over who will be more pro-life, traditional marriage, protect individual liberty, etc. Unfortunately, the Democrats care nothing about traditional views and the Republicans only pretend to care when they want our votes. Then, once the election is over they and the Democrats join together and basically do whatever they want. And you are right, there are crooks in both parties. Both parties tend to be arguing over how fast we should go leftward.
Just look at European countries, they are pretty much center-left or far left countries and Christianity is in decline. I am suspicious of any politician who wants to move leftward because in all countries, people on the left normally side with groups that are unfriendly to Christianity. Right-leaning groups, while imperfect, normally are much more friendly towards organized religion, particularly Christianity, than the left. And of course, there are exceptions to the rule both ways but in general this is accurate.
By the way, I am not anti-Obama, just pro-liberty and traditional values. True, I did vote for McCain, but had to hold my nose to do so because he wasn’t a whole lot different in many ways. However, when Obama’s wife says that she thinks America is a mean country, that is way over the top. When Obama says he wants to bring us all together and his third day in office signs an executive order to use taxpayer dollars for abortions overseas, this goes beyond politics and is a matter of evil.
I was very critical of Bush for running up big deficits, and am just as critical of Obama for tripling the Bush deficits in 100 days.
I have a big issue with any political party that goes left, whether they are Democrat, Republican, Communist, etc. These are the people that want to use our tax dollars for abortions, that want to tell us that churches are not worthy of charitable contributions, they want to steal from the productive in the name of helping the poor, etc. These same people never put up their own money to help the poor.
Please, wake up and see what is going on out there.
You act as if your the only one that notices. Don’t take a difference in reaction as ignorance. Honestly, I am not concerned where our country goes politically,, because I am more interested in the people that live in it. And I believe that if this country is to self destruct, it is a opportunity for God to work. God works in our brokenness. This country needs to break. There is no hope or answer in politics. Only opinion and power. Neither of which have any place in God’s kingdom.
Let me ask you a question. Did you vote for McCain because he was the correct choice for our country? Or did you vote for him because he was the lesser of two evils?
McCain was definitely the lesser of two evils:) It was like choosing between having your ear cut off or having your head cut off:) However, when Obama said that determining if abortion was murder was above his pay grade, that was just too much for me.
InWorship, I apologize for suggesting you weren’t informed, as I think that was very out of line on my part. I was not suggesting you were uninformed, but the country is uninformed. I have been very disheartened by the changes taking place in our country, and quite frankly, I kind of agree with you that the country needs to break.
I do think Christians need to be involved in politics, because if we aren’t then the politicians will crack down on us as they do in other countries. I am so scared that in 2-3 years if things keep going the way they are we will not have the freedom to disagree with the other side without at worst being sued or imprisoned or at best ridiculed by the likes of the entertainment industry, which I must say is dominated by left-leaning secular types.
I am concerned very much where we go politically, because if we keep going the same direction we will self destruct. And I think if we can get the country back on the right track we can start living in God’s will and hopefully not self destruct. And I don’t care so much where we go politically as long as we don’t continue doing things politically that are unbiblical.
I appreciate your conversation and tone. I enjoy discussion. I enjoy when we find the common ground that we can start from.
I agree with your comment here. I also agree that Christians should be involved in politics. Christians are involved in life in this country and should be completely engaged in all aspects of it at all times. this is how the world sees us and more importantly, sees Jesus.
I have a definite fear as to what will become of our country, but I can’t lose site of what I am still to be and who I am to serve in all of it. I don’t serve our country, but I love it because God has asked me to and I choose to. I also hurt for it, because I believe God hurts for it. But not because we are America, because we are His children.
I have written a post that is to go up on Wednesday. I actually wrote it a couple of days ago, but speaks nicely to our conversation. It speaks to how we get involved and how we can engage and how to not fight against it, but to stand for what is right. I hope you’ll be back for that conversation.
I will definitely check it out. You know, I like what you say about not fighting against things. I think too many of the people who have a Christian type of worldview have been intimidated such that they are always playing defense and they need to go on offense, so to speak. Of course, going on offense can be done without being offensive, which is what we have to do.
“they are always playing defense and they need to go on offense, so to speak. Of course, going on offense can be done without being offensive, which is what we have to do.”
This is at the heart of my post on Wednesday and I wholeheartedly agree.
this conversation makes me sad.
i am tired of generalizations. i am a proud, informed, bible-believing evangelical christian, and i am 100% progressive democrat. and i am sick and tired of people saying i need to wake up, or whatever. i’m about as deep in politics as one can be, and i like to consider myself smarter than normal.
politics doesn’t define me however. i don’t judge people based on their political beliefs, but i find it difficult to find other christians who see “treat others as you want to be treated” the same as i, regardless of party affiliation.
love. that’s what it comes down to. “they will know you by your love.”
i’m tired of hearing what christians are against. i’m tired of hearing of christians continuing to use the presidents middle name, as if it’s something to be ashamed of or that the people need to be reminded of. i’m tired of it… i’m just flat out tired of it. i’m tired of christians complaining all the time instead of praying all the time, and praying without motive.
to me, it shows a lack of trust in god.
and the fact that i’m getting back into this argument only makes me more sad.
love god. love others. why can’t christians get this right? myself included. by the way, others applies to politicians.
Thank you for your heart. Thank your for your passion to love people. This is what we saw in Jesus. We have to learn to care for and love people better. To get involved with any facet of life, including politics, is danagerous with an agenda that is anything but, love God, love people.
Man this is something that I have been wrestling with ever since the election. As Christians how do we relate to, and engage the culture and country that God has placed us in. Where does the Church i.e.(body of Christ) end and our nation begin? I often times think that that line if very clear to God and very fuzzy for us as we live in a country that encourages its citizens to participate in government decisions. Do I feel more a part of this country and less a member of the body of Christ? …
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I think what you speak of is something that has taken place in a more increasing fashion. The 2 party system of government is badly damaged. We no longer vote for what is the best choice, we vote for who is the lesser of two evils. We no longer are informed, we are advertised to. Because it’s a competition. Of course, all this comes back to the fact that, it is the heart of man that is doing this…not politics.
So, where is the line? God has asked us to engage fully and completely with people. Politics is one aspect of that. Get involved, vote, but not for the intention of legislating morality. That’s God’s job. He’s already done it. Politics took the place of God and now people want it to operate as if it is God and is here to judge us or uphold good. it is not. our government was setup to allow people the freedom to live and practice their love of people and God. Now government wants to tell us how to do that. It’s backwards. god already has told us. So in a sense, there is no line, except we serve God. not government. Our lives affect government, because of who God is through us and in us.
A law does nothing, especially if it isn’t a law God has given. Jesus does everything. We need to see politics and the media as a part of our life, but not our medium in living life.
One thing I have always wondered, how come it is okay to legislate morality for civil rights, income redistribution, global warming/global cooling/whatever they are calling it now, etc, but not to protect the unborn or defend marriage? It seems there is a double standard here.
Well…it’s not. Both cases are wrong.. but I think you would say the same thing,.
By the way, I just noticed there were some comments you made that went to my spam file. Do you have a blog? I think the comments you left with the references to articles and statistics would be good for a post on your end instead of the comment section here.
If you post it up, I will let people know to head your way to read it.
There is a web site y’all need to check out:
http://www.howobamagotelected.com
Below is the rundown on a poll that Zogby, one of the most respected polling outfits around, took concerning a sampling of Obama voters:
Sample size: 512 Obama Voters 11/13/08-11/15/08 MOE +/- 4.4 points
97.1% High School Graduate or higher, 55% College Graduates
Results to 12 simple Multiple Choice Questions
57.4% could NOT correctly say which party controls congress (50/50 shot just by guessing)
71.8% could NOT correctly say Joe Biden quit a previous campaign because of plagiarism (25% chance by guessing)
82.6% could NOT correctly say that Barack Obama won his first election by getting opponents kicked off the ballot (25% chance by guessing)
88.4% could NOT correctly say that Obama said his policies would likely bankrupt the coal industry and make energy rates skyrocket (25% chance by guessing)
56.1% could NOT correctly say Obama started his political career at the home of two former members of the Weather Underground (25% chance by guessing).
And yet…..
Only 13.7% failed to identify Sarah Palin as the person on which their party spent $150,000 in clothes
Only 6.2% failed to identify Palin as the one with a pregnant teenage daughter
And 86.9 % thought that Palin said that she could see Russia from her “house,” even though that was Tina Fey who said that!!
Only 2.4% got at least 11 correct.
Only .5% got all of them correct. (And we “gave” one answer that was technically not Palin, but actually Tina Fey)
The same questions were duplicated for a sample of McCain voters. The results from the Wilson survey:
35 % of McCain voters got 10 or more of 13 questions correct.
18% of Obama voters got 10 or more of 13 questions correct.
McCain voters knew which party controls congress by a 63-27 margin.
Obama voters got the “congressional control” question wrong by 43-41.
Those that got “congressional control” correct voted 56-43 for McCain.
Those that got “congressional control” wrong voted 65-35 for Obama.
The poll also asked voters to name all the media sources from which they got information.
Those “exposed” to Fox News got “congressional control” correct 64-25 (+39)
Those “exposed” to CNN got “congressional control” correct 48-38 (+10)
Those “exposed” to Network news got “congressional control” correct 48-39 (+9)
Those “exposed” to print media got “congressional control” correct 52-37 (+15)
Those “exposed” to MSNBC got “congressional control” correct 55-35 (+20)
Those “exposed” to talk radio got “congressional control” correct 61-29 (+32)
Voters in the “South” had the best response rate on “congressional control” (+22)
Voters in the “Northeast” had the worst response rate on “congressional control” (+9)
Those “exposed” to Fox News voted 70-29 for McCain.
Those “exposed” to CNN voted 63-37 for Obama.
Those “exposed” to MSNBC voted 73-26 for Obama.
Those “exposed” to network newscasts voted 62-37 for Obama.
Those “exposed” to national newspapers voted 64-36 for Obama.
Those “exposed” to talk radio voted 61-38 for McCain.
Those that could associate Bill Ayers’ name/story with Obama voted 52-48 for McCain (We added Ayers name to the “Zogby” question and it significantly increased the rate of correct response, indicating a very superficial grasp of the overall story).
Those that knew Obama had made negative comments about “coal power plants” voted 76-24 for McCain.
Those that knew Obama had his opponents knocked off the ballot in his first campaign voted 66-34 for McCain.
McCain voters did poorly (only 42% correct) on the Keating question and,in general, the voters did universally worse on questions where the negative information was about their candidate
Women under 55 did worse than they might have by guessing on four of the thirteen questions, and yet 95% of them knew that Palin was the candidate with a pregnant teenage daughter. Even 95% of those in this demographic group who didn’t know “congressional control” got this question correct.
Those “exposed” to MSNBC “scored” 90% correct on the three Palin questions (including an incredible 98% on the “pregnant teenage daughter” question), while those not “exposed” to MSNBC averaged 84% correct on those three questions.
________________________________________________
One thing to consider: it has been all over the media lately concerning Sarah Palin’s daughter having a baby with Levi Johnson, but conservative media sources have refused to touch the story concerning Joe Biden’s daughter being caught snorting coke on tape. Both stories should not have been covered, but the nasty fact is the liberal media plays by a much cruder, meaner set of standards that the conservative media.
With this reality, it is very difficult for conservatives to get their points across, unless we can encourage everyone to start watching Fox News or listening to talk radio.
It is almost like liberals and conservatives live in two parallel universes. Until we have fairness in reporting on the part of the mainstream and get rid of the liberal bias there, it will be very difficult for there to be any semblance of unity or for people of faith to get a fair shake.
This is the stuff I felt was most appropriate for your blog.
oops, my last comment got ate… i guess your blog thought it was html.
anyway. it went like this.
:facepalm:
Thats funny. I tend to be moderate to a-political at this point in my life, (haven’t always been and don’t always expect to be). My Brother in Law listens to a lot of conservative radio and is always talking about thing that are going on about government concentration camps, and the new socialist government we now have. I listen to a lot of sermon podcasts and was hoping to be able to catch some of the broadcasts he listens to, but unfortunately a lot of the podcasts cost money! Its very encouraging to know that the Church is far more effective at getting the Gospel out in current mediums than conservative talking heads. Rush should take a lesson from Mars Hill!
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Trust me, Rush’s job is not to get the gospel out, I’ll leave that to ministers. I listen to Rush, but get my spirutial info from other sources. Rush’s job is to be equal time for points of view not heard in so-called mainstream media.
You may want to start listening to Rush, as you will hear alot of things the so-called mainstream media ignores. And Rush has poo-pooed talk of the so-called concentration camps run by the UN as conspiracy cooks. Rush also calls out the cooks on the right, but is never given credit for this as those on the left wish to discredit anyone who believes in anything remotely right of center. And one time, Rush scolded a caller for using the word “f*g” to refer to gays, as he felt that was a perjorative term.
Actually, alot of what Rush mentions is only heard either on conservative political talk radio or on Christian oriented radio, although these two media are definitely not one and the same.
If you want to listen to Rush and find out for yourself what it is all about, tune in to AM 640 from 12-3 daily. Give it 4-6 weeks, because it takes everyone that long to get him (as it did me), but I promise you that you will either get hooked or hate it.
Also, I would strongly recommend Herman Cain, who airs on AM 750 at 7 p.m.
Thanks Freedom, I’ll give it a shot…
donnytop5´s last blog post…I am a Reader.