Disciple
This last week, I spent a lot of time with my brother. He is my head Audio tech at the church and we did some major renovations to our PA system.
In the process, we had a great discussion…at some time heated…regarding living above reproach and making disciples. We know the famous passage, [youversion]Matthew 28:18-20[/youversion]. It tells us to both spread the gospel as well as disciple.
Here is where I would love to hear from you. As a Pastor, I am often too close to the workings of the church, that I cannot see clearly as someone who may be looking to the church for help. So, what do you see as being the Churches responsibility in making disciples, and what do you see as your responsibility in it?
(By the way, I have installed the new youversion.com widget. When you see a verse in one of my posts, just hover over it and it will open a ballon window with that verse so that you can read it. Way to go lifechurch.tv!)
It's what the church was commissioned to do, so the church better make it top priority. If the church sits back and thinks it's just the Sr. Pastors' job to disciple the entire congregation then I think that's placing an unrealistic and unbiblical burden on the pastor, Jesus poured his life in 12, made them disciples and that has changed the world.
That's why I laugh when people chill at their house and tell me some preacher on TV is their pastor. Do they even know your name? Do they know your voice? Shepherd's know their sheep's voice, we got to get a biblical view of discipleship, pastoral care and evangelism.
Discipleship looks different at every church so I'm not going to promote a system. But I'd just say it better be in place cause 1 man can't pastor an entire congregation.
I've always seen the church as "C"hurch and "c"hurch. the Big C being the organization and the little c being the organism. the people. I agree with what you've said here. I believe that too many people wait around for the organization or the Pastors to disciple them all. When in fact it is personal responsibility to learn and grow and to do that corporately with others. What do you feel would be things that the Pastors and the organization can do to help people be less dependent on them?
I agree. it can't be done corporately. Like Kyle said, Jesus poured himself into 12 and then those 12 went out and changed the world. But even they didn't do it alone. they found others to disciple and so on, and so on. tawny, how can we at table Rock do a better job of this?
We agree that discipleship is primarily a relationship, right? So I think we need to do a better job of really being part of one anothers lives. All of us should be in relationships where we are loved and challenged by each other. We have to be growing ourselves first of all. (I am not saying we aren't, of course) Then we can disciple the people beside us (as they do the same for us) and under us and teach them how to do the same, until it spreads all over the place. To look at our jobs as less about the work and more about the people. I get really frustrated at the lack of knowing each other that happens in a big church. It is too easy to hide. Even in leadership. I have been SHOCKED lately to find out how much some people are struggling and I didn't have a clue. If God would not have arranged the circumstances for me to find out, I wouldn't have. I would love it if I had an answer to this question. I know how to do it in a small group but how to do it in a large one??? If we are all actively making disciples, leading people closer to the heart of our King, I don't know if we can do more than that……
I don't think the churches responsiblity is any diferent than the individual's. If we all disciple the people God gives us time and oportunity to, or let them disciple us (depending on our spiritual maturity) we will have it covered. Can you really "disciple" people corporately? Teaching, yes, but discipling seems very personal, intimate, sitting down talking together sort of thing to me. Jesus taught tons of people, but had a limited number of disciples.
We rely on our discipleship group (home group, connection group, whatever you wanna call them) leaders a lot! They truly are pastoring their groups. So our Sr. Pastor spends his time pouring into his group of men, training them, keeping them accountable and then the discipleship group leaders teach, encourage, keep accountable all the people in their groups. It's a culture that takes a while to instill in the church body. People that have come from other churches where they think they should be allowed to call the pastor for all their issues tend to struggle in our church.
Our pastor reiterates the vision of discipleship from the pulpit almost every week so it's been beaten into everyone pretty well by now
A lot of pastors struggle *not* trying to do everything and pastor everyone. So a lot of it is the pastor realizing he can't accomplish it on his own.
I agree it's relational. But I'd say that there should be a level of authority in the discipleship process in addition to peer relationship. Peer accountability and relationship for encouragement is great, but it must be accompanied with submission to authority to appointed leaders over you who are looking after you, praying over you, guarding you, teaching you and keeping you accountable from a position of authority. Both (peer and authoritative) are necessary and when one is missing it creates problems.
I'm thinking on your question, but I had to say I love that pop-up scripture thing!
I think authority is over rated.
It is Biblical, of course. And I do respect those in authority over me. But we are all under God's authority and in comparison to Him, we have no idea what we are doing. Who had authority between Paul and Peter? Seems like they submitted to each other at different times. I agree with what Heidi said, we are all the church. We all are called to ministry. We all have the Holy Spirit in us. Some of us know our God better than others and we need to gently lead those weaker than us. God can and will use all of us to lead each other, if we are willing. And what are we supposed to be discipling each other in, anyway? I would guess love and truth, right? What problems does it create if there isn't offical authority in the relationship?
Check your email for my comment. Even half of it was too long ={.
So how many words do we get now?
We'll see if this qualifies…
D-
I think it's CRITICAL that we get personal and relational in our churches and I also believe it's NOT the responsibility of the pastors and the leadership. What stops a mother of teenagers help a new mom? and so forth. I think culturally, we think that's what the pastors job is. __I have to tell you some of the best dicipling i have recieved hasn't been from my pastors, but more someone stopping and caring where my life was at the moment.
Tawny, I would say that being in a big church doesn't make it any harder to have relationships. I would bet that we would know about the same amount of people in a small or large church. we may know more about the people ina small church, but that doesn't mean we are in relationship with them. I thinks it's easier to hide, but that doesn't matter to me, because I don't do it
Heidi, as a Pastor, I can honestly say AMEN! I think the church is at fault for much of the dependence people have on it, but I also believe that people hold a responsibility in not making themselves dependent on the church's "milk".
Did the new comment setup give you a limit??? I'll see if I can change that!
OK, I had to turn off the new commenting option because it turns out that it limits the word count to 500. Bummed about that. I liked the ability to have threaded replies, but until that get’s fixed, we will go back to the old style
Kyle, This sounds similar to our model. We are small group driven. We call them link groups. The link group leaders are taught and resourced and then given the freedom to lead their group with the ability to rely on our staff for the needed help.
i believe the church needs to provide opportunities of training for those people. i think the church also needs to take a healthy look at each other (staff…most importantly) and see if the pastors are doing an effective job at modeling what it looks like to make disciples.
when we look at how Jesus did this we see 3 things:
1. Jesus showed them how to do it
2. Jesus involved them in the work
3. Jesus stepped back and let his disciples (and followers) do it
i think we need to realize that without effective accountability and love the church cannot succeed in looking past “its 4 walls” and seeing real needs, hurts and questions that need to be answered. not only in the lives of those involved within the church but also the lives of those who may never darken the doorway of a “church building.”
sorry for the rant…great post Brent!!
Okay, per your email request, here’s the #10 LOOOOOOOONG comment (if I’d left out God’s direct Words, it would’ve been shorter, but His are always much better than mine =):
I looked up the original word for ‘disciple’ in vs. 19, and it basically means ‘to teach’, but is only used 4 times in the NT, so didn’t really shed a lot of light on ‘how’ to do that. But in vs. 20, another word for ‘teaching’ is used there, and has lots of other NT references. Two that I think might apply are:
1 John 2:27
27 As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to ‘teach’ you. But as His anointing ‘teaches’ you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has ‘taught’ you, remain in Him. NIV
John 14:16-17, & 26
16 And I (Jesus) will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for He lives with you and will be in you.
…26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will ‘teach’ you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. NIV
I think these verses imply that the source of the teaching is either Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Granted the Holy Spirit uses people (us included) but only as we ‘remain in Christ’ and He in us, can we ‘teach’ anyone else (bear fruit) as Jesus goes on to say in
John 15:7-8
7 If you remain in me (Jesus) and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. NIV
I think too many times we focus on ‘learning how to teach’ others rather than ‘learning directly FROM the Teacher’ ourselves. I believe it’s only by allowing His Spirit to control every aspect of our lives that His life/words can then ‘teach’ others and bear fruit through us.
It seems our role then would be, like the first disciples, to just say, “Come and see”! (Jn. 1:46 & 4:29). It’s only when we have obviously been ‘taught’ by Him ourselves (Gal. 1:12), that they might then become more interested in coming to see and be ‘discipled’ by our Source also.
D-
(So were you really up at 4 AM making those comments?)
Dana, I love, love, love that! I am going to copy it and keep it, K? I was wondering what you sent to Brent. It is worth none of my comments making sense now that they are all out of order.
I am happy to share my own experiences and understandings of Jesus and His life as i understand them with any who want to hear them, for what they are worth (if they only come from me they are worth no more nor less than any other person’s own opinions!) i in no way consider myself a True Disciple, nor do i ever claim to do so to/for others.
I find it interesting that i have only seen PERSONAL opinions here on the subject, prefaced by i think, i believe, etc (although Dana made a very reasonable attempt to provide useful facts for all to consider).
There is much to mention here and one comment cannot do it justice so i’m going to post on it at my blog, for now i’ll just say: Jesus spent several years with all the Authority God had given Him – with the presence of the Holy Spirit with him at ALL times – and yet some of the twelve disciples He chose still doubted, even as they saw Him alive after the crucifixion (Matt Ch 28)
What then makes us believe we can make of us disciples based upon our opinions and not based upon our TEACHINGS? (There must be an unbroken lineage from the 11 to us if we are to be true disciples – claiming some other ‘Authority’ to our belief to own disipleship places something other than God in His Place as i see it).
There should be no personal opinion on this but direct quoting of what He and His Disciples taught to those they made disciples of – in my humble opinion
Peace, Light and Love
<B
love´s last blog post…A Season Wish.
Tawny,
Thanks for the affirmation. Copy anything you see worthwhile of mine (if it’s good, it has to be God anyway =).
The email didn’t have much of anything else, just a bit of a preface re: the length of it.
‘Hope you’re well now and able to have a great day thanking God tomorrow with your family.
D-
Mark, I appreciate your rant
D, “I think too many times we focus on ‘learning how to teach’ others rather than ‘learning directly FROM the Teacher’ ourselves. I believe it’s only by allowing His Spirit to control every aspect of our lives that His life/words can then ‘teach’ others and bear fruit through us.”
Yes!
Love, my focus here is not as much what is taught as whether we should and where that responsibility lies. As you have spoken in your comment, my concern also is to learn more than teach. I think that God will allow those times to encourage and teach, but I am hesitant to do this, if I know I am still int he process of learning.
Personal opinion is definitely a touchy line. If I am “in Him” my personal opinion is less me and more Him. I think there are times to teach from experience and God gives us his wisdom to do so.