Pastor’s Should Not Be Paid…Or Should They?
As I prep a post for more discussion on “Christian’ entertainment, I want to give you a spot to discuss the most recent thoughts. The comments in the last post have headed down a different road that I was headed, but I would say they have many similarities. I think they should be discussed.
Should a Pastor be paid?
I guess you would have to define a Pastor and their role first, but I don’t have time to do all that. The Bible speaks clearly to elder’s in the church. To leaders. To those who are equipping the church to go out and minister. They do minister to the church, but they are more focused on equipping. There is my simple definition of a Pastor.
So, should these people be paid? On one hand, the Bible tells us not to worry about where we will sleep or eat, God will provide (Matthew 6:25-26). It also suggests that we should not force these Elder’s to find their own food, but instead should financially take care of them so they can focus on their duties. It even says they should be paid well, some translations say…double the going wage (1 Timothy 5:17-18).
So what is it? Often the line is divided between the “simple” church and the “Mega” church because of their practices. Not sure that line should exist, but I do believe that line allows for some great thoughts and questions that hold us accountable.
(I am gone for the AM running a soccer camp for our church…I will be back early afternoon to jump in)
“Should a pastor be paid?”
Yes. But not extravagantly.
TheNorEaster’s last blog post…The Light of the World
oy.
Brandy’s last blog post…FAT is fabulous!!
absolutely pastors should be paid. (as should missionaries!)
why shouldn’t they be??
alece’s last blog post…pack it up
What, huh?
I worry about under paid pastors. How will they retire. Send kids to college? Ministry does not = the rest of us going about our business receiving their ministry while pastors have nothing. I think we are supposed to take care of them and honor them for their time of service towards we their flock. The stuff on TBN with all the pastor bling and ammusement park who ha, well, that is obviously out of balance and has done us no favors. But keeping pastors up with the standard of living, supporting them to be in homes, safe cars, med ins., etc., is in my opinion what we should strive for. Thats just me.
Roxanne Kristina’s last blog post…Powerful…
Uh yea they should be paid or they should be provided for as dictated by God.
What if God said to the pastor, “Don’t take your income from the church. I am your Portion. Trust in me.”? Then the pastor would obey God. (This happened to my friend and to say he is blessed is an understatement.)
Whatever God says to the church (to the elders, etc.) is how much they should be provided for. It is pretty much a no-brainer.
From God being the inheritance and portion for the Levites to 2 Corinthians 8 & 9, yes, the offices should be paid responsibly.
Joe Louthan’s last blog post…Tithes Are Not Just For The Church
Of course the pastor should be paid by the church. If the church body would bring it’s tithe to the storehouse churches wouldn’t have a hard time paying their staff well.
In a similar post regarding worship songwriters being compensated for their work I brought up these 2 verses:
1 Timothy 5:18b (NIV) …”The worker deserves his wages.”
and
Romans 13:7 (AMP) Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
and 1 Timothy 5:17 says that an elder who does his job well deserves “double honor”. The Greek word used in this verse actually means “of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold”
My pastor doesn’t receive pay from the church because he has a business on the side, so it really depends on what the pastor hears from God.
The post mentioned: http://reidgreven.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/pay-to-worship/
OK, Brent, I guess you figured I’d chime in here…
Should Pastors get paid??
Well, the answer is the whole system is broke and needs to be fixed. This is a whole huge conversation. I’ll be brief.
I was chair of both the Administrative Council and SPRC (basically the HR committee) for many years and oversaw the hire of two different pastors, so I speak from experience. I am part of a simple church now that has no pastor (although 3 of our 25 ‘members’ are ordained ex-pastors from 2 different denominations) and we make out exceptionally well.
Some comments:
- Churches lose out when pastors are salaried. They only can get as ‘good’ a pastor as they can afford. Wealthy churches get ‘great’ pastors and poor churches in poverty stricken areas either get leftovers or ‘good’ pastors who don’t care about getting paid. The ‘middle-class’ churches often mimic the ‘middle-class’ and spend more for a good pastor than they should and squander away tithing that could be better spent on things like the poor, homeless, etc.
- Pastors end up straddling the line between a career and ministry. I’ve told the story before about a friend of mine who is a church planter. While their church plant is doing well for it’s 4th year (over 100 members) he has a mortgage and 4 kids one of whom is getting ready for college. He’s desperately struggling to stimulate growth in what many (I) would consider a healthy, thriving church because it doesn’t generate enough income to support he and his family.
- In order to boost their resume, Pastors often succumb to the Distinguished Baggage phenomenon (sorry for another troll Brent
). This has been the biggest factor in the fracturing and splintering of the Christian faith over the past 2000 years. It’s the idea that in to distinguish oneself in the teaching (pastorate) field, you must do/say something unique and different. Put a new spin on things. Paul discusses this as early as his letters to the Corinthians in reference to the self proclaimed “super-apostles”.
OK, that’s enough… I can keep going, but most people (me) don’t have enough attention span for long droning comments.
I would phrase this question differently.
Should Christian financially support ministries?
Then it becomes more rhetorical. My dilemma is which ministries? There are so many. And who do I see as a leader in The Church? Many brothers and sisters have helped to equip me. Only a few of those are salaried pastors.
Ric’s last blog post…Dark Journey, Deep Grace
Well, the pastors should be focusing on the spiritual leadership of the church, right? I know the Bible says that the deacons are there to focus on the material things so that the elders (and pastor) don’t have to worry about that, and have time to focus on spiritual things. Along those same lines, shouldn’t we equip our pastors so that they don’t have to worry about money? I think they should be paid, but I also think that pastors have too much responsibility in American churches.
Michael’s last blog post…What? Who’s famous?? Oh, yeah!
ric – you owe my wife and I big bucks!!! (we accept checks).
I agree that we should support ministries, and I also agree with Buddy that the current (implied) system is hopelessly broken. Buddy alluded to just a few of the conflicts of interest that are inherent when the pastor is the paid professional. Scripture has a name for these folks – hirelings. (it’s not used in a positive connotation…)
So there you have it Brent. Go get a real job like the rest of us!
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
I’m sick and tired of hearing Christians say the current “system” of church is broken. Stop talking about it and do something about it (off my soapbox on that one now).
I guess if you think church is broken, then your answer would be a resounding no to if pastors should be paid. I think this goes right along the last post on Christian entertainment.
We as Christ followers are called to be a part of the church, both universal and local. We are called to give of ourselves, our money/time/gifts. Christ is using the local church to reach the world. Therefore, yes pastors should be paid.
Tyler’s last blog post…Crazy Love .1 of 3
I am…
Double-edged sword potentially.
If a pastor is paid he can focus time on pastoring.
If a pastor is paid he might feel pressure to keep those who pay him fat and happy.
Depends on the atmosphere of the individual church.
Russ’s last blog post…Are You Fiercely Loyal To Your Pastor
I think we do have a problem with the system and it’s not that it’s broken but it is probably just the wrong system.
We keep referring back to Paul and other early church leaders when we look for advice on how to ‘do’ church. And there is good advice there but we are nothing like the early church nor (let’s face it) do we really want to be. They were essentially socialists living a communal existence.
But that’s not how we live, especially here in America and we are much too individualistic to ever really want to. So we try to work with what we have.
I lean towards Buddy’s point of view here, even though I belong to a community with a paid pastor (‘enabling minister’). But we don’t follow her, she doesn’t tend to us, she does not set the spiritual tone – she is only someone who helps to facilitate the goals of our community.
So I think it should be up to each and every community to decide on how to go about ‘doing’ church. Keep it simple or go full tilt. As Buddy has said before on this topic; “live and let live”.
Of course, if you are mega pastor (or a more simple one) and you are stepping OUTSIDE of your community to preach to the world at large then you have expanded your ‘flock’ (tee-hee) and leave yourself open for criticism, especially if you are making millions on God’s name.
Christian’s last blog post…The Return of the Black Jesus
A pastor friend of mine posted about this a month or so ago. Always an interesting topic.
It’s the whole “laborer is worthy of his hire” thing that the Bible talks about. Honest pay for honest (very hard at times) work. I’ve worked in the mainstream and in ministry and as I’m sure you know, those of us in ministry don’t do it for the money!
I should also add that I’m totally against churches that try to squeeze every nickel and dime out of ministry leaders that they can. I’ve seen too many churches take advantage of their leadership by expecting them to work ungodly hours for next to nothing. I think that’s a horrible reflection on the church.
Brad Ruggles’s last blog post…How Do You Decide What Music To Let Your Child Listen To?
Tyler – Please don’t presume that something isn’t being done. There are many within the body that have taken radical steps to move outside the confines of the western church structure. A few of them blog…
I’m sick and tired of people trying to *fix* the problem from within the construct of the broken system. Perhaps Christian is more accurate in his supposition that it’s not broken just wrong, but I for one am done trying to work within a flawed and broken system. It’s vanity.
“We as Christ followers are called to be a part of the church, both universal and local.” No. We as Christ followers ARE the church.
“We are called to give of ourselves, our money/time/gifts.” No. This is a doctrinal teaching put forth by the institution of church. Show me a Scripture – we can discuss further.
Christ is using the local church to reach the world. Therefore, yes pastors should be paid.” No. Christ is using His people (the collective known as the church) to reach the world. Pastors have been elevated to a status (at least in western churches) far beyond what was spelled out in Scripture.
I still think Ric said it best, we should be supporting ministries. Many churches are not really ministries.
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Tyler – a couple more thoughts. I checked out your blog, and I recall the last time I was over there you were under conviction for dissing Rob Bell. It is awesome that you want to focus on what we have in common and not dwell on the negatives. My only caution is that what God is dealing with you about is usually not the same thing that he’s dealing with others about. The word is likely just for you (unless He’s told you something else). So for me, I am under conviction to no longer function within the institutional, western church. I’m not [necessarily] telling others to follow suit. So, don’t drop out of school (at least because of me), and don’t quit your dreams!!!
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
I for one think they should be paid. We need take care of those who minister to the needy, so that they’re not distracted with their own needs. This way their focus is still on other’s needs (spiritual and otherwise) and not how they’re going to make ends meet.
blessed1’s last blog post…Wordless Wednesday with love from Maui
I have to agree with blessed1. They need to be able to focus on the needs of others. I don’t think they should be extravagantly paid though. A comfortable living is fair and valid.
Scripture seems to put this in the court of the Pastor. If he wants to get paid that’s cool, if not that’s cool too. Paul took cash from some churches, but didn’t from others. That seems to be a call that he made based on his knowledge of the situation and the leading of the spirit.
Billy Chia’s last blog post…Top 5 Church Staff Blogs
Hey gang, I am finally able to sit down with this. Just got home and got my yard work done…I am good to go.
Buddy, Regarding a couple of your thoughts. I see all of those as issues, but not the issues. I know of some that have fallen along the lines you’ve painted, but I hardly think it is a majority. I do think there are issues within the church and it’s governmental structure, but it is a few where that governmental structure affects the truth.
Now, I have to say this from where I am sitting. I have been a part of the Baptist church all my life and I saw lot of politics, but I never saw God’s truth watered down. I have now been a part of non-denominational churches for over 10 years and I have seen none of what you are talking to. I think that in many churches, my experience would be similar.
And to Bad and Buddy and C, I am not sure it’s broken, or hopeless. Again, I speak from what I know and am a part of and I watch God work through and in people everyday. I’m watching the church community I am a part of affect the community everyday. I see the leaders of our church (I am one) equipping and encouraging.
I agree, but this would imply that other aspects of how church is being done, are OK. and I think there are many good models. And C, I would agree that we need to stop looking at the original church as “the structure” of what church should look like. I think it’s appropriate to evaluate, but silly to think we are them or can be like them.
To me, it is all about intent. God knows the heart and there are so many leaders leading different styles of churches that are doing it to His glory and that is OK for me. Even if I don’t agree with the structure or style.
Russ, I think you hit it as well…the environment, or intent.
Bad, you also mentioned something to Tyler, The idea that God may be working on one thing with one and another thing with another. I agree. So, don’t you think this could speak to our thoughts on how church institutions handle themselves?
Billy, I think you’ve hit on something. Scripture says to pay the church leaders. The “institutions” leaders. I think we have to assume that this is a part of that. Then, God will deal with the process of seeing who has been responsible with what He has given.
Great discussion topic bro
CJ Mills’s last blog post…Asher’s Noises – Surprise Ending!
Badguy-
I don’t ever write a blog post thinking that this is God’s message for all my readers to hear. I just writer…I usually don’t think about it much more than that.
I still disagree on your thoughts on the church. God is using both the universal and local church to advance His Kingdom. I see little Biblical evidence for your idea that the local church is broken. Just my opinion though. Glad to hear you are doing things to have something that is church different than the typical local church.
Tyler’s last blog post…Crazy Love .1 of 3
Yes… I think pastors should be paid. But I’m torn on this because I definitely think they should be paid, but I don’t think that they should live a showy life with tons of material items. I mean, while I think they should enjoy the blessings God gives them… I’d have to think twice about my pastor driving a Mercedes if the church itself were struggling financially in other areas.
Shauna’s last blog post…Shopping is what I do best
I have been paid pastoral staff – full time – youth pastor many years ago. I think paid staff is very acceptable. it would be interesting to know how much of your total church budget goes for staff salaries and benefits. Most churches i have checked it goes right at a third (33%) of the total budget. The highest I have seen is right at 38%. The church needs to be informed as a body of their annual budget expenses. Salaries should be equal to other professionals – they are professionals! Interesting topic!
Indian Lake Papa’s last blog post…My Earthly Father could do Anything!
I find it fascinating that those that say yes, also qualify it with “but not too much.” How much is too much, and who gets to decide?
Papa – the church I previously attended had the sr. pastor’s compensation at about 50% of the budget.
Tyler – To God’s glory, he uses us despite our best efforts to individually or collectively screw the pooch.
Brent – Yes. I’m not telling people to quit their church, or for churches to shut down. Everyone needs to work it out w/God and them individually. I’m describing where I am today, how I got here, and that there are others that think like me.
blessed1/bryan – we don’t need to take care of those caring for the needy; WE are commanded to take care of the needy. This is actually a good example of the brokenness of churches – that we’ve abdicated our own responsibility to the hireling or paid professional.
Read about the seven churches in Revelation and compare your local church to each of them. See any similarities? Any patterns? Does any of it ring true? Chances are the answer is yes.
Another example: ask the average man on the street to define “church” and you’re going to get one of two answers: 1) the Sunday morning service, or 2) the building where the service is held. It’s broken to call the building the church. It’s broken to say we “go to church.”
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Our pastor told a story of an old friend of his who had worked at a certain church for years. He lived in a parsonage & his furniture were provided by the church members.
Guess what? They brought him their crappy, left over, smelly old furniture.
Whatever happened to giving our best? Why would that ring any less true to someone we’re following on our walk w/ & to Christ.
How we pay our pastors shows how much our church values them.
It’s not a 40 hour a week job…
Mandy’s last blog post…I’ve been tagged…
This has really got me thinking, Brent.
TheNorEaster’s last blog post…The Light of the World
Interesting!!! The church I grew up in the pastors were not paid, they were not married, didn’t have jobs or homes etc… They lived out of their suitcases basically going from one house to the other. I don’t know the exact scripture but they always quoted it “Freely I recieve, freely I give…” Two problems with this. 1. The people absolutely worshiped these pastors because they were living the life of true disciples. Jesus himself was always lost in the religion and messages. 2. The pastors could never relate to our problems. Marriage, children, financial stress etc…
I love where I’m at now and our pastors. I love that Jesus is always the message and he can relate to the congregation.
Yes I think they should be paid and live a normal life.
Elaine’s last blog post…Gus goes for his first swim
Bad Guy! 50% for the senior pastor! That sounds a little heavy on the budget – our total pastoral budget (Lead pastor, executive Pastor, youth Pastor, Worship Leader, Children’s Minister, Administrative Staff, Custodial Staff) is about 36% – now I am curios, maybe i will recheck ours.
Indian Lake Papa’s last blog post…My Earthly Father could do Anything!
Papa,
By the time you factor in mortgage, facility maintenance, office supplies, HVAC, utilities, etc along with the 36%, how much is left for the poor and hungry?
When I was Admin Council at our old church, salaries and benefits were more like 60%. It was a small church with a limited budget and salaries were dictated by the labor union (uh I mean denomination). After the mandatory apportionments to the denomination, utilities, maintenance there was absolutely NOTHING left to do the REAL work Christ commanded us.
the poor and the hungry? well…get the church doing what the church is suppose to be doing and get out there and feed them. bring your canned goods and non perishable items to a food pantry that your church can set up. bring clothing, blankets, toys. distribute them to your community. get out and deliver them to the homeless. that doesnt even cost money. people have the resources and availability to do that already. but i find a majority just wanta write a check or know that their ‘church’ has written one and sent it off to some organization.
tam’s last blog post…they knocked, i gasped and my dog growled
I hear ya Tam, but I really think it could be argued the other way.
You can donate several cases of canned goods and it only costs you maybe $20. If you do like most people and clean out your pantry of the creamed corn and pumpkin pie filling it’s basically free. Same thing with blankets, toys and clothes. For the most part it’s folks cleaning out their closets.
How about $500 to help a struggling family make rent. Or $1500 to help a homeless guy with a rotten tooth. We have a school in Baltimore we help that exclusively gives education to homeless children. The kids come in off the street for school and after school go back to the street. They need supplies, mortgage payments, teachers salaries, etc. $200 to give a village in Africa a well. $5000 to Heifer to build a sustainable agricultural economy in a village. I mentioned over at totaltransformation’s place… a lot of folks would sooner drop $2k on a pet than $500 to help their struggling neighbor pay their electric bill.
I think people like to reserve their ‘tithe’ for church because they get something out of it. Kind of like paying their gym membership. In return for their check they get good music, a good message, nice carpet, child care, some place for their teens to ‘chill’, etc, etc… It’s kind of self-serving not Kingdom serving.
Papa – what buddy said. I intentionally said “compensation” not “salary.” the pastor in question recently spearheaded a million $$$ construction project and kept touting that it was done “completely debt free.” He received lavish praises for this accomplishment, and multiple standing ovations (when God or Jesus was mentioned there was mild, polite applause.) The “rest of the story” is that in building the new family life center (which contains a lavish office for the pastor) the church sold its parsonage to the pastor. The budget had to be modified to incorporate a housing allowance where there was none before. I don’t disagree with the rationale for doing this – I think it made sense at the time. But my HUGE disagreement is that the church didn’t take on a 15- or 30-year mortgage but an ongoing housing allowance for the rest of the church’s existence. That’s a huge debt in my book, thus making the statement “debt free” a lie.
What the pastor should be saying is they are mortgage free – a point that was pointed out not only to the pastor but also to the exec. board…and still the lie keeps coming from the pulpit (and the standing ovations continue).
Maybe an isolated incident; maybe not. Still it’s broken.
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Here’s a couple questions that I believe warrant personal reflection. Your own response should influence 1) your perception of whether “church” is broken, and 2) whether you should be financially supporting the management team of the institution…
1. Do you currently give 10% of your annual gross income to God? (presumably through the local church with which you’re affiliated?)
2. Do you know/maintain a relationship with your next door neighbors? (not the casual exchange of greetings – but do you really know them?)
3. Do you know what is your own personal spiritual gift(s) and are you using it/them?
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
1.No. Why put all your eggs in one basket? Especially if it has some holes in it.
2.Yes. Well, just on the left side. The guy on the right is a jerk. He hates cats.
3.No. Well, yes. But only in the shower.
Christian’s last blog post…The Return of the Black Jesus
A persons giving should be 10 % of gross, gifts & special offerings after that. I attend two different churches, both give over 10% of annual budget strictly for missions – Bad Guy, God is going to really hold us accountable for what ever the mission of the church is. My next post, tomorrow will address part of that.
Indian Lake Papa’s last blog post…My Earthly Father could do Anything!
papa – I look forward to your post!
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Uh. Should be 10%? Shouldn’t that be a personal preference? A Biblical tool if you feel like you need such?
Christian’s last blog post…The Return of the Black Jesus
exactly buddy – and why cant we tithe to our church and also get dirty in the trenches with our offerings and sacrifices (time, resources). i guess that is my point.
tam’s last blog post…they knocked, i gasped and my dog growled
“No. Well, yes. But only in the shower.”
CHRISTIAN!!!
tam’s last blog post…they knocked, i gasped and my dog growled
It’s interesting reading through these thoughts. I am not really seeing anything here that shouldn’t be considered and thought through.
I believe all of us are coming from a place of wanting God’s truth to be the priority in all of this. I am sure we could lay verses out for both sides and weight the pros and cons and still find ourselves where we are.
One thing is that we come from perspective and background.
Papa, you mentioned 10%. There is not reference to the tithe of 10% under the new covenant. In fact Paul says to give more. But, it is a great principle to live by.
Buddy, I think you pointed out perspective in your rebuttal to Tam. It’s all perspective. I’ve never known someone to give instead of serve, just cause they can. But, I work mostly with blue collar people, so I see lots of sacrifice. If I was in a wealthier place, I am sure I would see that.
Bad, you keep saying it’s broke, but I only hear of references to certain places where their are integrity issues in the leadership. That’s not an issue with the institution, it’s an issue with the people. And in that sense, I would heavily agree that “people” are broke and need to be fixed.
Institutions don’t function properly or improperly because of process. That’s the cart before the horse. Institutions don’t function properly or improperly because of people who make the process. It doesn’t matter what form the “church” institution takes or doesn’t take, even if an institution doesn’t exist, people will still make improper decisions. Taking an institution away does nothing to change people. It will only direct attention to other forms of life that will test their integrity.
So, we’ve strayed a bit from “pastor’s being paid”, to more of a money discussion and that ok. Except that I don’t think money should be our focus. The heart and intent should be.
I’ve watched people spend money left and right and I’ve watched people not spend a penny. I’ve seen people in both those camps ministering in amazing ways. I’ve also seen people in both those camps doing nothing. It comes down to intent for me.
I’ve been a part of churches all my life. I work in one now. My pay is the least of my concerns or thoughts. I’ve had very little in ministry and times where I’ve felt overflowed with blessings. There is constant ebb and flow in life when it comes to finances and needs. there is no difference in ministry. Which makes me a bit sad, cause scripture clearly tells us that church leaders should never have to worry about that ebb and flow.
Money is not the issue for me. Paul implies that we will know if someone is with their ability in money. How do we judge that? I don’t believe there is an answer for that. Just like one church has 60% of budget paying a Pastor and another has 30%, no two institutions are the same and I don’t know anywhere in the Bible where it gives us any view of how that institution should look, except for leadership and priorities. So it comes down to heart. Who is using their gifts. Who is doing this to give glory to God and His kingdom. Who is serving first.
And to clarify…yes, I think there should be institutions.
got scripture to back that up?
Which part. The only plaace I really spoke to scripture was dealing with the Timothy passage.
sorry for the delayed response – was flying home last night, then cable was out this a.m. Anyway, I was referring to your last statement in support of the institution…
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
No worries…
I think I should have made the statement, I have no issue with institutions.
Do I have scripture to back it up? This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but I would just reference everything Paul wrote to churches to teach them how to establish leaders, manage resources and control gatherings.
Can you provide specific examples of these Scriptures, and how they are being expressed within our contemporary, institutionalized form of church? For now, you may stick to your three topics:
1. establish leaders;
2. manage resources; and
3. control gatherings.
Thanks!
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Honestly, I would love to give you some of those references, but not to prove my point. I feel like I am being asked to prove my point. If we are in honest discussion here I would be happy to give you some references if you’d like. But, here is a great resource that could give some great talking points. there is a book called Biblical Eldership by a guy named Alexander Strauch. It is a quality read that goes through the scriptural interpretations of leadership int eh church and discusses a lot of what we are discussing right now. If you are interested, here it is.
http://www.amazon.com/Study-Guide-Biblical-Eldership/dp/0936083131/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217689473&sr=1-1
I’m afraid you’re not sticking to the question. I am certainly on board with Scripture precepts of Biblical leadership, communal living, and accountability. Our point of contention is on the issue of the institutionalizing of the church – not how it functions within the framework.
You’ve said, and I’ve heard many others say that “form doesn’t matter.” I question this notion (and anyone can respond to this – it doesn’t have to be between you and me). I have been to too many churches that claim to be “doing it right” only to find that sooo many of the foundational elements of the institution have remained intact – yet it’s essentially doing church “my way” or the “way I like”. The foundational elements of the institutionalized church – especially the western church that most of us function within – are what I’m questioning. You won’t find verses to back up the institution as we’ve come to know it because they don’t exist – that is, it’s not biblical. A study of church history, world history, European history, colonialism, the rise of the nation state, and so forth is required to put today’s institution into its appropriate context.
Short of that, here are some thought provoking [hopefully] questions (for anyone):
When did the corporate gathering become a spectator sport where the ‘flock’ passively sits and listens to the ’shepherd’?
When did it become the norm to purchase a building for the purpose of fulfilling the corporate gathering? What happened to meeting in people’s houses?
When was celebration of the passover reduced to an assembly line distribution of a crouton and a thimble full of grape juice?
When and how did the corporate gathering for worship come to be called “service”?
When did the local church stop caring for the widows and orphans? (biblically – 33% of a churches income should be exclusively devoted to the poor)?
When did the pastor become the paid professional? and when did the congregation decide to check their personal pursuits of a relationship with God for a relationship with the institution?
Why are their people that affirm themselves as “Methodists” or “Baptists” or “Calvinists” or “Pentecostals” rather than simply identifying their allegiance to and relationship with the Christ?
When did it become acceptable to fly the nation’s flag within the building we use for corporate gatherings?
When in history did the church decide it was prudent to align itself with the existing form of government rather than “fly under the radar?” When in history has that proven to work out well for anyone?
hey – I don’t mean to hijack your blog. I’ll repost this over on my blog. we can continue the discussion here, or take it up there.
Again, these questions are for anyone to respond – not just directed at Brent.
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…