Pastor’s Should Not Be Paid…Or Should They?
Posted by inWorship | Under Just Thinking, Religion Wednesday Jul 30, 2008As I prep a post for more discussion on “Christian’ entertainment, I want to give you a spot to discuss the most recent thoughts. The comments in the last post have headed down a different road that I was headed, but I would say they have many similarities. I think they should be discussed.
Should a Pastor be paid?
I guess you would have to define a Pastor and their role first, but I don’t have time to do all that. The Bible speaks clearly to elder’s in the church. To leaders. To those who are equipping the church to go out and minister. They do minister to the church, but they are more focused on equipping. There is my simple definition of a Pastor.
So, should these people be paid? On one hand, the Bible tells us not to worry about where we will sleep or eat, God will provide (Matthew 6:25-26). It also suggests that we should not force these Elder’s to find their own food, but instead should financially take care of them so they can focus on their duties. It even says they should be paid well, some translations say…double the going wage (1 Timothy 5:17-18).
So what is it? Often the line is divided between the “simple” church and the “Mega” church because of their practices. Not sure that line should exist, but I do believe that line allows for some great thoughts and questions that hold us accountable.
(I am gone for the AM running a soccer camp for our church…I will be back early afternoon to jump in)
“Should a pastor be paid?”
Yes. But not extravagantly.
TheNorEaster’s last blog post…The Light of the World
oy.
Brandy’s last blog post…FAT is fabulous!!
absolutely pastors should be paid. (as should missionaries!)
why shouldn’t they be??
alece’s last blog post…pack it up
What, huh?
I worry about under paid pastors. How will they retire. Send kids to college? Ministry does not = the rest of us going about our business receiving their ministry while pastors have nothing. I think we are supposed to take care of them and honor them for their time of service towards we their flock. The stuff on TBN with all the pastor bling and ammusement park who ha, well, that is obviously out of balance and has done us no favors. But keeping pastors up with the standard of living, supporting them to be in homes, safe cars, med ins., etc., is in my opinion what we should strive for. Thats just me.
Roxanne Kristina’s last blog post…Powerful…
Uh yea they should be paid or they should be provided for as dictated by God.
What if God said to the pastor, “Don’t take your income from the church. I am your Portion. Trust in me.”? Then the pastor would obey God. (This happened to my friend and to say he is blessed is an understatement.)
Whatever God says to the church (to the elders, etc.) is how much they should be provided for. It is pretty much a no-brainer.
From God being the inheritance and portion for the Levites to 2 Corinthians 8 & 9, yes, the offices should be paid responsibly.
Joe Louthan’s last blog post…Tithes Are Not Just For The Church
Of course the pastor should be paid by the church. If the church body would bring it’s tithe to the storehouse churches wouldn’t have a hard time paying their staff well.
In a similar post regarding worship songwriters being compensated for their work I brought up these 2 verses:
1 Timothy 5:18b (NIV) …”The worker deserves his wages.”
and
Romans 13:7 (AMP) Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
and 1 Timothy 5:17 says that an elder who does his job well deserves “double honor”. The Greek word used in this verse actually means “of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold”
My pastor doesn’t receive pay from the church because he has a business on the side, so it really depends on what the pastor hears from God.
The post mentioned: http://reidgreven.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/pay-to-worship/
OK, Brent, I guess you figured I’d chime in here…
Should Pastors get paid??
Well, the answer is the whole system is broke and needs to be fixed. This is a whole huge conversation. I’ll be brief.
I was chair of both the Administrative Council and SPRC (basically the HR committee) for many years and oversaw the hire of two different pastors, so I speak from experience. I am part of a simple church now that has no pastor (although 3 of our 25 ‘members’ are ordained ex-pastors from 2 different denominations) and we make out exceptionally well.
Some comments:
- Churches lose out when pastors are salaried. They only can get as ‘good’ a pastor as they can afford. Wealthy churches get ‘great’ pastors and poor churches in poverty stricken areas either get leftovers or ‘good’ pastors who don’t care about getting paid. The ‘middle-class’ churches often mimic the ‘middle-class’ and spend more for a good pastor than they should and squander away tithing that could be better spent on things like the poor, homeless, etc.
- Pastors end up straddling the line between a career and ministry. I’ve told the story before about a friend of mine who is a church planter. While their church plant is doing well for it’s 4th year (over 100 members) he has a mortgage and 4 kids one of whom is getting ready for college. He’s desperately struggling to stimulate growth in what many (I) would consider a healthy, thriving church because it doesn’t generate enough income to support he and his family.
- In order to boost their resume, Pastors often succumb to the Distinguished Baggage phenomenon (sorry for another troll Brent
). This has been the biggest factor in the fracturing and splintering of the Christian faith over the past 2000 years. It’s the idea that in to distinguish oneself in the teaching (pastorate) field, you must do/say something unique and different. Put a new spin on things. Paul discusses this as early as his letters to the Corinthians in reference to the self proclaimed “super-apostles”.
OK, that’s enough… I can keep going, but most people (me) don’t have enough attention span for long droning comments.
I would phrase this question differently.
Should Christian financially support ministries?
Then it becomes more rhetorical. My dilemma is which ministries? There are so many. And who do I see as a leader in The Church? Many brothers and sisters have helped to equip me. Only a few of those are salaried pastors.
Ric’s last blog post…Dark Journey, Deep Grace
Well, the pastors should be focusing on the spiritual leadership of the church, right? I know the Bible says that the deacons are there to focus on the material things so that the elders (and pastor) don’t have to worry about that, and have time to focus on spiritual things. Along those same lines, shouldn’t we equip our pastors so that they don’t have to worry about money? I think they should be paid, but I also think that pastors have too much responsibility in American churches.
Michael’s last blog post…What? Who’s famous?? Oh, yeah!
ric - you owe my wife and I big bucks!!! (we accept checks).
I agree that we should support ministries, and I also agree with Buddy that the current (implied) system is hopelessly broken. Buddy alluded to just a few of the conflicts of interest that are inherent when the pastor is the paid professional. Scripture has a name for these folks - hirelings. (it’s not used in a positive connotation…)
So there you have it Brent. Go get a real job like the rest of us!
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
I’m sick and tired of hearing Christians say the current “system” of church is broken. Stop talking about it and do something about it (off my soapbox on that one now).
I guess if you think church is broken, then your answer would be a resounding no to if pastors should be paid. I think this goes right along the last post on Christian entertainment.
We as Christ followers are called to be a part of the church, both universal and local. We are called to give of ourselves, our money/time/gifts. Christ is using the local church to reach the world. Therefore, yes pastors should be paid.
Tyler’s last blog post…Crazy Love .1 of 3
I am…
Double-edged sword potentially.
If a pastor is paid he can focus time on pastoring.
If a pastor is paid he might feel pressure to keep those who pay him fat and happy.
Depends on the atmosphere of the individual church.
Russ’s last blog post…Are You Fiercely Loyal To Your Pastor
I think we do have a problem with the system and it’s not that it’s broken but it is probably just the wrong system.
We keep referring back to Paul and other early church leaders when we look for advice on how to ‘do’ church. And there is good advice there but we are nothing like the early church nor (let’s face it) do we really want to be. They were essentially socialists living a communal existence.
But that’s not how we live, especially here in America and we are much too individualistic to ever really want to. So we try to work with what we have.
I lean towards Buddy’s point of view here, even though I belong to a community with a paid pastor (’enabling minister’). But we don’t follow her, she doesn’t tend to us, she does not set the spiritual tone - she is only someone who helps to facilitate the goals of our community.
So I think it should be up to each and every community to decide on how to go about ‘doing’ church. Keep it simple or go full tilt. As Buddy has said before on this topic; “live and let live”.
Of course, if you are mega pastor (or a more simple one) and you are stepping OUTSIDE of your community to preach to the world at large then you have expanded your ‘flock’ (tee-hee) and leave yourself open for criticism, especially if you are making millions on God’s name.
Christian’s last blog post…The Return of the Black Jesus
A pastor friend of mine posted about this a month or so ago. Always an interesting topic.
It’s the whole “laborer is worthy of his hire” thing that the Bible talks about. Honest pay for honest (very hard at times) work. I’ve worked in the mainstream and in ministry and as I’m sure you know, those of us in ministry don’t do it for the money!
I should also add that I’m totally against churches that try to squeeze every nickel and dime out of ministry leaders that they can. I’ve seen too many churches take advantage of their leadership by expecting them to work ungodly hours for next to nothing. I think that’s a horrible reflection on the church.
Brad Ruggles’s last blog post…How Do You Decide What Music To Let Your Child Listen To?
Tyler - Please don’t presume that something isn’t being done. There are many within the body that have taken radical steps to move outside the confines of the western church structure. A few of them blog…
I’m sick and tired of people trying to *fix* the problem from within the construct of the broken system. Perhaps Christian is more accurate in his supposition that it’s not broken just wrong, but I for one am done trying to work within a flawed and broken system. It’s vanity.
“We as Christ followers are called to be a part of the church, both universal and local.” No. We as Christ followers ARE the church.
“We are called to give of ourselves, our money/time/gifts.” No. This is a doctrinal teaching put forth by the institution of church. Show me a Scripture - we can discuss further.
Christ is using the local church to reach the world. Therefore, yes pastors should be paid.” No. Christ is using His people (the collective known as the church) to reach the world. Pastors have been elevated to a status (at least in western churches) far beyond what was spelled out in Scripture.
I still think Ric said it best, we should be supporting ministries. Many churches are not really ministries.
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Tyler - a couple more thoughts. I checked out your blog, and I recall the last time I was over there you were under conviction for dissing Rob Bell. It is awesome that you want to focus on what we have in common and not dwell on the negatives. My only caution is that what God is dealing with you about is usually not the same thing that he’s dealing with others about. The word is likely just for you (unless He’s told you something else). So for me, I am under conviction to no longer function within the institutional, western church. I’m not [necessarily] telling others to follow suit. So, don’t drop out of school (at least because of me), and don’t quit your dreams!!!
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
I for one think they should be paid. We need take care of those who minister to the needy, so that they’re not distracted with their own needs. This way their focus is still on other’s needs (spiritual and otherwise) and not how they’re going to make ends meet.
blessed1’s last blog post…Wordless Wednesday with love from Maui
I have to agree with blessed1. They need to be able to focus on the needs of others. I don’t think they should be extravagantly paid though. A comfortable living is fair and valid.
Scripture seems to put this in the court of the Pastor. If he wants to get paid that’s cool, if not that’s cool too. Paul took cash from some churches, but didn’t from others. That seems to be a call that he made based on his knowledge of the situation and the leading of the spirit.
Billy Chia’s last blog post…Top 5 Church Staff Blogs
Hey gang, I am finally able to sit down with this. Just got home and got my yard work done…I am good to go.
Buddy, Regarding a couple of your thoughts. I see all of those as issues, but not the issues. I know of some that have fallen along the lines you’ve painted, but I hardly think it is a majority. I do think there are issues within the church and it’s governmental structure, but it is a few where that governmental structure affects the truth.
Now, I have to say this from where I am sitting. I have been a part of the Baptist church all my life and I saw lot of politics, but I never saw God’s truth watered down. I have now been a part of non-denominational churches for over 10 years and I have seen none of what you are talking to. I think that in many churches, my experience would be similar.
And to Bad and Buddy and C, I am not sure it’s broken, or hopeless. Again, I speak from what I know and am a part of and I watch God work through and in people everyday. I’m watching the church community I am a part of affect the community everyday. I see the leaders of our church (I am one) equipping and encouraging.
I agree, but this would imply that other aspects of how church is being done, are OK. and I think there are many good models. And C, I would agree that we need to stop looking at the original church as “the structure” of what church should look like. I think it’s appropriate to evaluate, but silly to think we are them or can be like them.
To me, it is all about intent. God knows the heart and there are so many leaders leading different styles of churches that are doing it to His glory and that is OK for me. Even if I don’t agree with the structure or style.
Russ, I think you hit it as well…the environment, or intent.
Bad, you also mentioned something to Tyler, The idea that God may be working on one thing with one and another thing with another. I agree. So, don’t you think this could speak to our thoughts on how church institutions handle themselves?
Billy, I think you’ve hit on something. Scripture says to pay the church leaders. The “institutions” leaders. I think we have to assume that this is a part of that. Then, God will deal with the process of seeing who has been responsible with what He has given.
Great discussion topic bro
CJ Mills’s last blog post…Asher’s Noises - Surprise Ending!
Badguy-
I don’t ever write a blog post thinking that this is God’s message for all my readers to hear. I just writer…I usually don’t think about it much more than that.
I still disagree on your thoughts on the church. God is using both the universal and local church to advance His Kingdom. I see little Biblical evidence for your idea that the local church is broken. Just my opinion though. Glad to hear you are doing things to have something that is church different than the typical local church.
Tyler’s last blog post…Crazy Love .1 of 3
Yes… I think pastors should be paid. But I’m torn on this because I definitely think they should be paid, but I don’t think that they should live a showy life with tons of material items. I mean, while I think they should enjoy the blessings God gives them… I’d have to think twice about my pastor driving a Mercedes if the church itself were struggling financially in other areas.
Shauna’s last blog post…Shopping is what I do best
I have been paid pastoral staff - full time - youth pastor many years ago. I think paid staff is very acceptable. it would be interesting to know how much of your total church budget goes for staff salaries and benefits. Most churches i have checked it goes right at a third (33%) of the total budget. The highest I have seen is right at 38%. The church needs to be informed as a body of their annual budget expenses. Salaries should be equal to other professionals - they are professionals! Interesting topic!
Indian Lake Papa’s last blog post…My Earthly Father could do Anything!
I find it fascinating that those that say yes, also qualify it with “but not too much.” How much is too much, and who gets to decide?
Papa - the church I previously attended had the sr. pastor’s compensation at about 50% of the budget.
Tyler - To God’s glory, he uses us despite our best efforts to individually or collectively screw the pooch.
Brent - Yes. I’m not telling people to quit their church, or for churches to shut down. Everyone needs to work it out w/God and them individually. I’m describing where I am today, how I got here, and that there are others that think like me.
blessed1/bryan - we don’t need to take care of those caring for the needy; WE are commanded to take care of the needy. This is actually a good example of the brokenness of churches - that we’ve abdicated our own responsibility to the hireling or paid professional.
Read about the seven churches in Revelation and compare your local church to each of them. See any similarities? Any patterns? Does any of it ring true? Chances are the answer is yes.
Another example: ask the average man on the street to define “church” and you’re going to get one of two answers: 1) the Sunday morning service, or 2) the building where the service is held. It’s broken to call the building the church. It’s broken to say we “go to church.”
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Our pastor told a story of an old friend of his who had worked at a certain church for years. He lived in a parsonage & his furniture were provided by the church members.
Guess what? They brought him their crappy, left over, smelly old furniture.
Whatever happened to giving our best? Why would that ring any less true to someone we’re following on our walk w/ & to Christ.
How we pay our pastors shows how much our church values them.
It’s not a 40 hour a week job…
Mandy’s last blog post…I’ve been tagged…
This has really got me thinking, Brent.
TheNorEaster’s last blog post…The Light of the World
Interesting!!! The church I grew up in the pastors were not paid, they were not married, didn’t have jobs or homes etc… They lived out of their suitcases basically going from one house to the other. I don’t know the exact scripture but they always quoted it “Freely I recieve, freely I give…” Two problems with this. 1. The people absolutely worshiped these pastors because they were living the life of true disciples. Jesus himself was always lost in the religion and messages. 2. The pastors could never relate to our problems. Marriage, children, financial stress etc…
I love where I’m at now and our pastors. I love that Jesus is always the message and he can relate to the congregation.
Yes I think they should be paid and live a normal life.
Elaine’s last blog post…Gus goes for his first swim
Bad Guy! 50% for the senior pastor! That sounds a little heavy on the budget - our total pastoral budget (Lead pastor, executive Pastor, youth Pastor, Worship Leader, Children’s Minister, Administrative Staff, Custodial Staff) is about 36% - now I am curios, maybe i will recheck ours.
Indian Lake Papa’s last blog post…My Earthly Father could do Anything!
Papa,
By the time you factor in mortgage, facility maintenance, office supplies, HVAC, utilities, etc along with the 36%, how much is left for the poor and hungry?
When I was Admin Council at our old church, salaries and benefits were more like 60%. It was a small church with a limited budget and salaries were dictated by the labor union (uh I mean denomination). After the mandatory apportionments to the denomination, utilities, maintenance there was absolutely NOTHING left to do the REAL work Christ commanded us.
the poor and the hungry? well…get the church doing what the church is suppose to be doing and get out there and feed them. bring your canned goods and non perishable items to a food pantry that your church can set up. bring clothing, blankets, toys. distribute them to your community. get out and deliver them to the homeless. that doesnt even cost money. people have the resources and availability to do that already. but i find a majority just wanta write a check or know that their ‘church’ has written one and sent it off to some organization.
tam’s last blog post…they knocked, i gasped and my dog growled
I hear ya Tam, but I really think it could be argued the other way.
You can donate several cases of canned goods and it only costs you maybe $20. If you do like most people and clean out your pantry of the creamed corn and pumpkin pie filling it’s basically free. Same thing with blankets, toys and clothes. For the most part it’s folks cleaning out their closets.
How about $500 to help a struggling family make rent. Or $1500 to help a homeless guy with a rotten tooth. We have a school in Baltimore we help that exclusively gives education to homeless children. The kids come in off the street for school and after school go back to the street. They need supplies, mortgage payments, teachers salaries, etc. $200 to give a village in Africa a well. $5000 to Heifer to build a sustainable agricultural economy in a village. I mentioned over at totaltransformation’s place… a lot of folks would sooner drop $2k on a pet than $500 to help their struggling neighbor pay their electric bill.
I think people like to reserve their ‘tithe’ for church because they get something out of it. Kind of like paying their gym membership. In return for their check they get good music, a good message, nice carpet, child care, some place for their teens to ‘chill’, etc, etc… It’s kind of self-serving not Kingdom serving.
Papa - what buddy said. I intentionally said “compensation” not “salary.” the pastor in question recently spearheaded a million $$$ construction project and kept touting that it was done “completely debt free.” He received lavish praises for this accomplishment, and multiple standing ovations (when God or Jesus was mentioned there was mild, polite applause.) The “rest of the story” is that in building the new family life center (which contains a lavish office for the pastor) the church sold its parsonage to the pastor. The budget had to be modified to incorporate a housing allowance where there was none before. I don’t disagree with the rationale for doing this - I think it made sense at the time. But my HUGE disagreement is that the church didn’t take on a 15- or 30-year mortgage but an ongoing housing allowance for the rest of the church’s existence. That’s a huge debt in my book, thus making the statement “debt free” a lie.
What the pastor should be saying is they are mortgage free - a point that was pointed out not only to the pastor but also to the exec. board…and still the lie keeps coming from the pulpit (and the standing ovations continue).
Maybe an isolated incident; maybe not. Still it’s broken.
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Here’s a couple questions that I believe warrant personal reflection. Your own response should influence 1) your perception of whether “church” is broken, and 2) whether you should be financially supporting the management team of the institution…
1. Do you currently give 10% of your annual gross income to God? (presumably through the local church with which you’re affiliated?)
2. Do you know/maintain a relationship with your next door neighbors? (not the casual exchange of greetings - but do you really know them?)
3. Do you know what is your own personal spiritual gift(s) and are you using it/them?
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
1.No. Why put all your eggs in one basket? Especially if it has some holes in it.
2.Yes. Well, just on the left side. The guy on the right is a jerk. He hates cats.
3.No. Well, yes. But only in the shower.
Christian’s last blog post…The Return of the Black Jesus
A persons giving should be 10 % of gross, gifts & special offerings after that. I attend two different churches, both give over 10% of annual budget strictly for missions - Bad Guy, God is going to really hold us accountable for what ever the mission of the church is. My next post, tomorrow will address part of that.
Indian Lake Papa’s last blog post…My Earthly Father could do Anything!
papa - I look forward to your post!
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
Uh. Should be 10%? Shouldn’t that be a personal preference? A Biblical tool if you feel like you need such?
Christian’s last blog post…The Return of the Black Jesus
exactly buddy - and why cant we tithe to our church and also get dirty in the trenches with our offerings and sacrifices (time, resources). i guess that is my point.
tam’s last blog post…they knocked, i gasped and my dog growled
“No. Well, yes. But only in the shower.”
CHRISTIAN!!!
tam’s last blog post…they knocked, i gasped and my dog growled
It’s interesting reading through these thoughts. I am not really seeing anything here that shouldn’t be considered and thought through.
I believe all of us are coming from a place of wanting God’s truth to be the priority in all of this. I am sure we could lay verses out for both sides and weight the pros and cons and still find ourselves where we are.
One thing is that we come from perspective and background.
Papa, you mentioned 10%. There is not reference to the tithe of 10% under the new covenant. In fact Paul says to give more. But, it is a great principle to live by.
Buddy, I think you pointed out perspective in your rebuttal to Tam. It’s all perspective. I’ve never known someone to give instead of serve, just cause they can. But, I work mostly with blue collar people, so I see lots of sacrifice. If I was in a wealthier place, I am sure I would see that.
Bad, you keep saying it’s broke, but I only hear of references to certain places where their are integrity issues in the leadership. That’s not an issue with the institution, it’s an issue with the people. And in that sense, I would heavily agree that “people” are broke and need to be fixed.
Institutions don’t function properly or improperly because of process. That’s the cart before the horse. Institutions don’t function properly or improperly because of people who make the process. It doesn’t matter what form the “church” institution takes or doesn’t take, even if an institution doesn’t exist, people will still make improper decisions. Taking an institution away does nothing to change people. It will only direct attention to other forms of life that will test their integrity.
So, we’ve strayed a bit from “pastor’s being paid”, to more of a money discussion and that ok. Except that I don’t think money should be our focus. The heart and intent should be.
I’ve watched people spend money left and right and I’ve watched people not spend a penny. I’ve seen people in both those camps ministering in amazing ways. I’ve also seen people in both those camps doing nothing. It comes down to intent for me.
I’ve been a part of churches all my life. I work in one now. My pay is the least of my concerns or thoughts. I’ve had very little in ministry and times where I’ve felt overflowed with blessings. There is constant ebb and flow in life when it comes to finances and needs. there is no difference in ministry. Which makes me a bit sad, cause scripture clearly tells us that church leaders should never have to worry about that ebb and flow.
Money is not the issue for me. Paul implies that we will know if someone is with their ability in money. How do we judge that? I don’t believe there is an answer for that. Just like one church has 60% of budget paying a Pastor and another has 30%, no two institutions are the same and I don’t know anywhere in the Bible where it gives us any view of how that institution should look, except for leadership and priorities. So it comes down to heart. Who is using their gifts. Who is doing this to give glory to God and His kingdom. Who is serving first.
And to clarify…yes, I think there should be institutions.
got scripture to back that up?
Which part. The only plaace I really spoke to scripture was dealing with the Timothy passage.
sorry for the delayed response - was flying home last night, then cable was out this a.m. Anyway, I was referring to your last statement in support of the institution…
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
No worries…
I think I should have made the statement, I have no issue with institutions.
Do I have scripture to back it up? This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, but I would just reference everything Paul wrote to churches to teach them how to establish leaders, manage resources and control gatherings.
Can you provide specific examples of these Scriptures, and how they are being expressed within our contemporary, institutionalized form of church? For now, you may stick to your three topics:
1. establish leaders;
2. manage resources; and
3. control gatherings.
Thanks!
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
[...] Brent on whether pastors should be paid. [...]
Honestly, I would love to give you some of those references, but not to prove my point. I feel like I am being asked to prove my point. If we are in honest discussion here I would be happy to give you some references if you’d like. But, here is a great resource that could give some great talking points. there is a book called Biblical Eldership by a guy named Alexander Strauch. It is a quality read that goes through the scriptural interpretations of leadership int eh church and discusses a lot of what we are discussing right now. If you are interested, here it is.
http://www.amazon.com/Study-Guide-Biblical-Eldership/dp/0936083131/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217689473&sr=1-1
I’m afraid you’re not sticking to the question. I am certainly on board with Scripture precepts of Biblical leadership, communal living, and accountability. Our point of contention is on the issue of the institutionalizing of the church - not how it functions within the framework.
You’ve said, and I’ve heard many others say that “form doesn’t matter.” I question this notion (and anyone can respond to this - it doesn’t have to be between you and me). I have been to too many churches that claim to be “doing it right” only to find that sooo many of the foundational elements of the institution have remained intact - yet it’s essentially doing church “my way” or the “way I like”. The foundational elements of the institutionalized church - especially the western church that most of us function within - are what I’m questioning. You won’t find verses to back up the institution as we’ve come to know it because they don’t exist - that is, it’s not biblical. A study of church history, world history, European history, colonialism, the rise of the nation state, and so forth is required to put today’s institution into its appropriate context.
Short of that, here are some thought provoking [hopefully] questions (for anyone):
When did the corporate gathering become a spectator sport where the ‘flock’ passively sits and listens to the ’shepherd’?
When did it become the norm to purchase a building for the purpose of fulfilling the corporate gathering? What happened to meeting in people’s houses?
When was celebration of the passover reduced to an assembly line distribution of a crouton and a thimble full of grape juice?
When and how did the corporate gathering for worship come to be called “service”?
When did the local church stop caring for the widows and orphans? (biblically - 33% of a churches income should be exclusively devoted to the poor)?
When did the pastor become the paid professional? and when did the congregation decide to check their personal pursuits of a relationship with God for a relationship with the institution?
Why are their people that affirm themselves as “Methodists” or “Baptists” or “Calvinists” or “Pentecostals” rather than simply identifying their allegiance to and relationship with the Christ?
When did it become acceptable to fly the nation’s flag within the building we use for corporate gatherings?
When in history did the church decide it was prudent to align itself with the existing form of government rather than “fly under the radar?” When in history has that proven to work out well for anyone?
hey - I don’t mean to hijack your blog. I’ll repost this over on my blog. we can continue the discussion here, or take it up there.
Again, these questions are for anyone to respond - not just directed at Brent.
badguy’s last blog post…What year is this? oh yeah, 2008…
[...] 2, 2008 by b4dguy This is a reposting of a comment I made on inWorship’s blog about the current state of the “church.” I reposted so as not to hijack Brent’s [...]
Like Bad said, please feel free to continue this here or at his place.
http://b4dguy.wordpress.com/2008/08/02/should-christians-be-institutionalized/
This book I mentioned is one that does speak to the institution and who the leaders of the church should be within that context. I wasn’t trying to stray from the original questioning. I also think that we are looking at institution as something different. .
I guess this is confusing me. To have framework is to have institution. Institution takes on many different forms, but the basis of an institution is that there is framework. Am I missing your thoughts here?
Have they claimed to “do it right” or are they just doing it with the giftings and resources they have to do it with. Every church is different in form, because no 2 people are alike. the personality at my church will be very different than the one down the street. I think you know this about me, but I will never claim to be doing it the “right way” only the way I know best with who God’s created me to be. I see this same thing in churches and leadership all over the place.
Here are your questions. I will do my best to answer. Love that your provoking this
The corporate gathering between believers was never meant to be “sit and listen”. There is heavy implication in Paul’s teachings that all should encourage and exhort and speak. At our church we have made this a part of all the gatherings we have focused on the believers. We meet in small groups and mid week studies every week and this takes place. Our weekend service however is focused to be more outreach, so it takes on the flavor of “sit and listen”. Jesus was one to teach in a “sit and listen” fashion. Sharing application adn parable to lead people to the truth. Our weekends are like this.
I remember hearing once that churches are the worst businesses in the world. Why would you pay so much for something that sits empty 6 days a week. We’ve made a point of using our facility 7 days a week. Does this justify it? No. But we fell comfortable with the decisions we’ve made to both provide a place for people as well as head out into the community. I also don’t believe that the “in house” thing has anything to do with it. We are called to gather, I’m not concerned where that happens. Money to me is not the issue. To much emphasis is put on money.
Not sure I’ve ever seem the Lord’s Supper as this. Communion for me is a beautiful and special time. Whether it’s juice and wafers or bread and wine means nothing to me. the Savior i worship and celebrate is why I partake. And I live by “as often as you gather…remember”, so we partake every time we gather.
I don’t know, and I really don’t like that name. it makes no sense to me.
Not sure they’ve stopped. Perspective? We are doing it and many I know are as well. Also, it’s interesting that widows have to be over 60 and in need to even be cared for. That would count out many of the widows we know here. But we care still. Not sure this is the priority of the institution though. I think it’s the priority of the people. We shouldn’t rely on the institution to do the ministering. 33% is a great number, but Paul says give it all to whoever is in need. Again, that burden is on the people…leaders included…not the institution.
Paid professional? If pay makes us professional than…in 1 Timothy 5. Again, perspective? I think there are many that rely on the institution but many don’t. I say many, cause that’s what I see. I don’t have a relationship with my institution, I have a relationship with the people in it and the God we serve. That would include anyone that I cross paths with. Whether they attend a weekly service at my local church or not. This is the way i am as well as the other leaders I work with. We are purposeful in leading our church to think and act beyond our walls. Because our walls truly don’t even exist.
I agree. Drives me nuts. Sends the message that “we have it right”. We have no denominational allegiance or stance at our church.
Yeah. Virtual Christianity, the voyeurs way of seeing God. Except for clergy, many of them are more like performers before an audience. (Present company excepted!)
I remember the Catholic way. When I was a teen ager a bunch of folk got it into their heads that I may have had a ‘vocation’ for the priesthood. Nuts!
Many years later I understood that I did have a vocation, and so did quite a few of my friends as well as my wife and daughter. But we don’t need to become clergy, pastors or ministers to realize this vocation. What a disservice this idea has done, where there are those who ‘get it’ and are allowed to really do what the gospel says while the majority of people are content with being ‘laity’. Part-time Christians with a multitude of exemptions, living in the ‘real’ world.
So we are always talking about preaching and pastoring and ministries and taking care of the poor through the auspices of the church and the administering of the clergy. Which usually boils down to just writing checks. I think what happens then is that we shortchange ourselves. I believe that one reason that Jesus wants us to handle these things on our own, face to face, is that rather than just ministering to those in need we find ourselves being ministered by them.
Henri Nouwen wrote a great little book about this called “Adam”, where he gave up his highly respected teaching and speaking ‘ministry’ to become what he though would be the spiritual adviser for a community of severely handicapped people. When he arrived he was a bit put off when they made him the 24 hour one-on-one caretaker for a paralyzed and catatonic young man named Adam. Through caring for this man, bathing him, feeding him, sitting with him, he came to sense that Jesus was present in this very weak, dependent person. It was a life changing experience for him. We miss encountering Christ in this way if we only support, but allow others to handle, ministries.
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I’m one of those who are paid for full time work and am able to minister, “financially” because my wife has been called to be a registered nurse.
Story time: an elder in a church I once served found out Mormon’s didn’t pay their ministers, presidents, teachers or whatever the title is. Half-jokingly, he suggested we should do the same. My response was they also tithe and sit down with someone from the stake each year to make sure they have tithed. Can we do that as well? Never heard another word about it.
One problem “in the church” is that it’s made up of people and people are sinners. If EVERY believer TITHED as the beginning point, [the first two bucks in the plate] there would be money enough to pay pastors, support ministries and do the mission of the Church. The GREAT news is that this problem will take care of itself when our Lord returns. Maranatha
Alan
A laborer is worthy of his hire, but that applies to all laborers, not just some, nor some laborers (i.e., clergy) more than others (non-clergy). God never established that pastors or any other offices in the Church ought to be full-time or paid positions, or that other offices ought to be part-time, subordinate, or volunteer positions. Compensation is based on contract (mutual consent), not spiritual office (divine authority).
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C, People need to understand giftings and abilities. God made us who we are, first and foremost to glorify Him. You can’t do that sitting in a pew. But, I would also say that some are gifted to teach and some aren’t. Some are gifted to lead and some aren’t, Some are gifted to encourage and some aren’t. That is what is great about all the “parts of the body”.
Alan, I agree that the people is church, so the church will have issues. We have to be able to hold each other accountable though and we need to keep ourselves accountable as well.
Pawel, thanks for joining in. Are you saying that nothing should exist unless God established it? or does that just go for the church?
If the church can afford to pay the Pastor, and the pastor is taking is doing his part..YES..God does provide, and sometimes HE provides through the people sitting in the church..not saying they should be rich…but that they should be comfortable..my two cents
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Darla, I guess technically I could say…I accept your two cents
Brent, when I say ‘framework’ I’m thinking more of being organized. I see a difference between being organized and being an organization. Where does ‘institution’ fall in the spectrum? closer to the organization end of things.
The last church I attended claimed to be doing it right (==God’s way) because all the churches that the pastor had been part of were doing it wrong. The only thing I see markedly different about this church is that the music is what the pastor likes, and the messages are what the pastor wants to talk about. Other elements are essentially the same (especially the ways they are missing the mark).
Responses as I read your answers to my questions:
“Our weekend service however is focused to be more outreach”.
Two terms - loaded with issues. Service and Outreach. I heard an analogy once of the church treating new converts like they were newborn babies - and the church will feed them as long as they show up at the appointed time and place…otherwise, tough luck.
Agreed. There is no justification for owning a building, campus, or whatever. I’m glad your church has at least recognized the need to be better stewards of the physical plant.
The “last supper” was the feast of passover. It’s possible that Jesus meant “every time you eat” or “every time you celebrate the passover [remember that I AM the passover lamb]“. My point is more that the sharing of a meal (which implies significant time, resources, and planning) has been reduced to a symbolic gesture (unless you’re catholic) rather than the more literal interpretation. It’s more assembly line/streamlined these days - no matter what form “the elements” take.
The doctrine of the tithe (esp. to be paid to the institution) is really a product of the institution itself. In the Law, the tithe of your agricultural products were to be brought to the temple where everyone ate together (I believe that is the biblical justification for the pot luck supper!). Every third year the tithe (again of your crops) was to be given over to feed the Levits, the aliens, the fatherless, and the widow (that’s where I got 33%). I agree, it should be the people doing the tithe - and none of it should go to the institution (or its upkeep).
Although I’m glad to see that your local church doesn’t do many of the things I point out, that doesn’t answer the question. Your fellowship would be the exception - not the rule - based on my experience. But I’d bet that there are quite a few within your fellowship that are ‘coasting’ within the system that you’ve setup. If I’m wrong - what a blessing! What % of participation do you have in all of the ministries of your church based on its membership (if you even count heads at all)? Maybe participation as a ratio of average attendance at outreach and inreach(?) services?
Groups of believers and their impact on the government and politics. There is no biblical precedence for any active participation at all within any form of government offered to us.
I’d still like to hear others’ thoughts - this wasn’t meant just for Brent…
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Bad, as I kept thinking through the “institution” thing, I understand more what you are saying and I would agree with your thoughts on “organization”. We’ve always said, here, that a church is not an organization it is an organism. it is people, it can’t be run by the details. So everything that’s done has to evaluated from that perspective.
Both of these terms can be packed full of issues, but I didn’t use these in that way. Our weekend gatherings (which is what we as a staff call them) are different that the other gatherings during the week. They are more “sit and listen”. The message and truth hasn’t changed, but we recognize that many people will be attending for the first time and many don’t have a clue of what they are waling into. Our weekends are plain and simple…different. The rest of our gatherings have been more purposeful to have one on one or discussion oriented teaching. Could we do that on the weekend? Sure, but we like the variety.
Is our weekend gathering outreach? No, but we understand that out of all the gatherings we have, the weekend will be the heaviest with people who don’t believe and those who are visiting. So, the thought process is different for us.
i’m encouraged that you’re fellowship has seemingly thought through some tough issues on tradition vs. change. Definitely we are an organism, and should be organized - but not to the point where the form becomes the object of worship. This, unfortunately, is the case in much of American/Western churches.
The key word you used this time…”thought”. That’s all I’m really seeking; is that people think rather than just buy into the same old, same old. Be a Berean!!!
badguy’s last blog post…Broken Things
It’s a constant evaluation to make sure that god stays in the forefront and our desires always take a back seat.
“Berean”
Funny story. When I lived in the LA area, we had a sister baptist church called Berean Baptist. Ummmm. They were anything but Berean. I used to hear people pick on them because of their name. They were the ultra, closed, conservative church in the area.
I found a link to this post from another discussion on Anne Jackson’s blog. I would say yes a pastor should be paid and I would reference the verses in Timothy. I personally have grown up in a pastors home and have been a full time youth pastor. I would love to know a logical explanation why anyone would believe that it is both scriptural and practical for a pastor to struggle or to have to sacrifice family time and personal time by having to work two maybe even three jobs to provide for their family and pay their bills because a church will not provide for their needs when they are providing for the spiritual needs of the people? The Bible is clear that if a man does not work, he should not eat. If someone says that being a pastor is not work, they are not only crazy and idiotic, but they have obviously not been a pastor. It is easy to throw the word hireling around, but we can not bend it and make it into what we desire the name to mean. A hireling is not someone who gets paid for being a minister. A hireling is a pastor or a spiritual overseer who’s motives are driven by the dollar, one who will only care for the spiritual needs of others by knowing he will be paid. Someone who does the job solely because they are receiving a paycheck. I know it is easy to have an opinion and to want to take a verse here and there to prove our point, but that would be inaccurate.
For those who are asking for a scripture here and a scripture there to outline every detail of our lives and every detail of what the church does, will never find them, and it is a waste of time and a pointless argument to demand such a thing. Sure some scripture is straight up and specific and then there is scripture that is not. Jesus taught in parables many times, I don’t see Christians living out the parables, but with each parable is a principle to live by and to function by. When was the last time someone cut out their eye because it caused them to sin? I mean really give me a break!
For those who do not feel the church is doing what it should, well I am sure you are right in many ways. The only perfect person was Jesus and sometimes I think he was foolish to hand over such a huge responsibility to sinful imperfect people, but it is usually the sinful imperfect people that he uses the most and it is usually those who think they have all of the answers and have it down just right that really bothers him (see the Pharisees, particularly in Matthew 23). I am sure there are areas that every church can improve upon, but you know, why do we put so much emphasis on those areas if Jesus is being preached? That would be a reference to Paul in Philippians 1. He said some were preaching Jesus for personal gain, but he was not going to complain, because JESUS was being preached. Are people being saved? Are people being loved on? Is Jesus being lifted up? Maybe not to some people’s high and lofty standards, but you know, Jesus didn’t say he was going to build his church on their standards, he said he was going to build it himself, and look who he started with, Peter! Of all the cussing sailors around! I am sure some here would have been screaming at Jesus that he was doing it wrong, but look where the church is today, institutionalized or not.
I currently work at a church for a job that is not the church where my family attends. I am in between youth jobs right now, but this church pays their pastor a very nice salary. I saw one sentence around the figure and it said, “so you will have no worldly care…” I think that’s the way the money thing should be. Provide for the man of God and the leaders and overseers of the church, if you don’t like it start your own church and lead the people for free, I am sure God would appreciate the discount!
…And I am sorry for my first comment on your blog being so long. I just started typing my thoughts on the subject and that’s where I ended.
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Nick, thanks for joining in!
I think there is a thought that if the Bible doesn’t say it we shouldn’t do it. But I don’t agree with that. I think you’ve spoken well to that as well.
I loved Paul’s attitude. He was interested first and foremost to people hearing the message of Christ and knowing Him a part from man’s religious rules and ideas. I like that.
An zero worries on the length. Have at it
Nick, Hi… You’re argument makes sense under the assumption that the role pastors play in the modern church is ‘right’. I think the opposite argument is based on the foundational hypothesis that the way we do church and the role that modern pastors take is not the best, most effective, or at least not the only way to do it.
Thinking outside the box leads to the conclusion that perhaps a full time salaried pastor with benefits is not the best way to do church… at least for a growing number of people.
I agree with Buddy. I think it would depend upon the oommunity. If that is the way that particularly community has been designed - a full time pastor with a part-time salary - then that would result in the unfortunate situation you suggest.
But what if a community decides they have no need for a traditional pastor? What if the community itself takes upon this role?
Currently I am attending a church where every month all aspects of the sevice are designed and built by a team of rotation volunteers. The benefits are that more people become involved, a much more diverse body of thought is experienced and the community actually comes to grow stronger through enhanced participation. (I would imagine this is not too different from Buddy’s simple church - correct me if I’m wrong here.)
That being said, we do have paid pastor, although she prefers the title ‘enabling minister’ - we are to follow Christ, not her ideas of God.
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Nick - thanks for the contribution to the discussion here. It is always good to have alternative perspectives brought out - it makes people think.
My stance on the application of scripture being the litmus test for whether we do anything is not based on “if it’s not in Scripture don’t do it”, it’s based on the historical evolution of an institutionalized structure that has little biblical basis (at least the biblical basis has been diluted and often lost) for what it has become today. Many people share the concern that what we know today as the institution of church, and its many ‘traditions’ are held more sacred than actual biblical truth - to the point that they are fatally flawed, broken, wrong.
Nick - your caveat is telling and supports this assertion: “why do we put so much emphasis on those areas if Jesus is being preached?”
that is my point - I’ve been to too many churches where Jesus is not being preached. Period.
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“I guess you would have to define a Pastor and their role first, but I don’t have time to do all that.”
Pity. . .
That would seem to be very worthy of serious consideration, but that’s just baed on my opinion after having visited countless ‘church’ sites where almost everyone on staff is a pastor (Pastor of ‘Administration’? - what, ‘paper’ sheep?). Then there is the annoying (at least to me) complete lack of listing credentials/curriculum vitae, part of the larger issue of the same sites having no stated doctrine, or their doctrine buried three levels deep beneath the ’sans scripture’, bland, Peter Druckeresque ‘vision/values/what we believe’ statements designed for ’seekers’ who are by nature uncomfortable with any statement preceded or followed by actual scripture references.
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Dan, it has already been considered. Paul has spoken to it very nicely. You misunderstood my statement. I did not want to take time and type out what Paul has already spoken to.
Possibly, but I tend to understand words for what they say. You chose not to define what you said you supposed “would have to” for your question about a pay check to be fully understood. I sure hope everyone who commented knew those things ‘already stated by Paul’.
And actually I was getting to a larger issue that you either ch