Pastor’s Should Not Be Paid…Or Should They?
As I prep a post for more discussion on “Christian’ entertainment, I want to give you a spot to discuss the most recent thoughts. The comments in the last post have headed down a different road that I was headed, but I would say they have many similarities. I think they should be discussed.
Should a Pastor be paid?
I guess you would have to define a Pastor and their role first, but I don’t have time to do all that. The Bible speaks clearly to elder’s in the church. To leaders. To those who are equipping the church to go out and minister. They do minister to the church, but they are more focused on equipping. There is my simple definition of a Pastor.
So, should these people be paid? On one hand, the Bible tells us not to worry about where we will sleep or eat, God will provide (Matthew 6:25-26). It also suggests that we should not force these Elder’s to find their own food, but instead should financially take care of them so they can focus on their duties. It even says they should be paid well, some translations say…double the going wage (1 Timothy 5:17-18).
So what is it? Often the line is divided between the “simple” church and the “Mega” church because of their practices. Not sure that line should exist, but I do believe that line allows for some great thoughts and questions that hold us accountable.
(I am gone for the AM running a soccer camp for our church…I will be back early afternoon to jump in)
Like Bad said, please feel free to continue this here or at his place.
http://b4dguy.wordpress.com/2008/08/02/should-christians-be-institutionalized/
This book I mentioned is one that does speak to the institution and who the leaders of the church should be within that context. I wasn’t trying to stray from the original questioning. I also think that we are looking at institution as something different. .
I guess this is confusing me. To have framework is to have institution. Institution takes on many different forms, but the basis of an institution is that there is framework. Am I missing your thoughts here?
Have they claimed to “do it right” or are they just doing it with the giftings and resources they have to do it with. Every church is different in form, because no 2 people are alike. the personality at my church will be very different than the one down the street. I think you know this about me, but I will never claim to be doing it the “right way” only the way I know best with who God’s created me to be. I see this same thing in churches and leadership all over the place.
Here are your questions. I will do my best to answer. Love that your provoking this
The corporate gathering between believers was never meant to be “sit and listen”. There is heavy implication in Paul’s teachings that all should encourage and exhort and speak. At our church we have made this a part of all the gatherings we have focused on the believers. We meet in small groups and mid week studies every week and this takes place. Our weekend service however is focused to be more outreach, so it takes on the flavor of “sit and listen”. Jesus was one to teach in a “sit and listen” fashion. Sharing application adn parable to lead people to the truth. Our weekends are like this.
I remember hearing once that churches are the worst businesses in the world. Why would you pay so much for something that sits empty 6 days a week. We’ve made a point of using our facility 7 days a week. Does this justify it? No. But we fell comfortable with the decisions we’ve made to both provide a place for people as well as head out into the community. I also don’t believe that the “in house” thing has anything to do with it. We are called to gather, I’m not concerned where that happens. Money to me is not the issue. To much emphasis is put on money.
Not sure I’ve ever seem the Lord’s Supper as this. Communion for me is a beautiful and special time. Whether it’s juice and wafers or bread and wine means nothing to me. the Savior i worship and celebrate is why I partake. And I live by “as often as you gather…remember”, so we partake every time we gather.
I don’t know, and I really don’t like that name. it makes no sense to me.
Not sure they’ve stopped. Perspective? We are doing it and many I know are as well. Also, it’s interesting that widows have to be over 60 and in need to even be cared for. That would count out many of the widows we know here. But we care still. Not sure this is the priority of the institution though. I think it’s the priority of the people. We shouldn’t rely on the institution to do the ministering. 33% is a great number, but Paul says give it all to whoever is in need. Again, that burden is on the people…leaders included…not the institution.
Paid professional? If pay makes us professional than…in 1 Timothy 5. Again, perspective? I think there are many that rely on the institution but many don’t. I say many, cause that’s what I see. I don’t have a relationship with my institution, I have a relationship with the people in it and the God we serve. That would include anyone that I cross paths with. Whether they attend a weekly service at my local church or not. This is the way i am as well as the other leaders I work with. We are purposeful in leading our church to think and act beyond our walls. Because our walls truly don’t even exist.
I agree. Drives me nuts. Sends the message that “we have it right”. We have no denominational allegiance or stance at our church.
Yeah. Virtual Christianity, the voyeurs way of seeing God. Except for clergy, many of them are more like performers before an audience. (Present company excepted!)
I remember the Catholic way. When I was a teen ager a bunch of folk got it into their heads that I may have had a ‘vocation’ for the priesthood. Nuts!
Many years later I understood that I did have a vocation, and so did quite a few of my friends as well as my wife and daughter. But we don’t need to become clergy, pastors or ministers to realize this vocation. What a disservice this idea has done, where there are those who ‘get it’ and are allowed to really do what the gospel says while the majority of people are content with being ‘laity’. Part-time Christians with a multitude of exemptions, living in the ‘real’ world.
So we are always talking about preaching and pastoring and ministries and taking care of the poor through the auspices of the church and the administering of the clergy. Which usually boils down to just writing checks. I think what happens then is that we shortchange ourselves. I believe that one reason that Jesus wants us to handle these things on our own, face to face, is that rather than just ministering to those in need we find ourselves being ministered by them.
Henri Nouwen wrote a great little book about this called “Adam”, where he gave up his highly respected teaching and speaking ‘ministry’ to become what he though would be the spiritual adviser for a community of severely handicapped people. When he arrived he was a bit put off when they made him the 24 hour one-on-one caretaker for a paralyzed and catatonic young man named Adam. Through caring for this man, bathing him, feeding him, sitting with him, he came to sense that Jesus was present in this very weak, dependent person. It was a life changing experience for him. We miss encountering Christ in this way if we only support, but allow others to handle, ministries.
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I’m one of those who are paid for full time work and am able to minister, “financially” because my wife has been called to be a registered nurse.
Story time: an elder in a church I once served found out Mormon’s didn’t pay their ministers, presidents, teachers or whatever the title is. Half-jokingly, he suggested we should do the same. My response was they also tithe and sit down with someone from the stake each year to make sure they have tithed. Can we do that as well? Never heard another word about it.
One problem “in the church” is that it’s made up of people and people are sinners. If EVERY believer TITHED as the beginning point, [the first two bucks in the plate] there would be money enough to pay pastors, support ministries and do the mission of the Church. The GREAT news is that this problem will take care of itself when our Lord returns. Maranatha
Alan
A laborer is worthy of his hire, but that applies to all laborers, not just some, nor some laborers (i.e., clergy) more than others (non-clergy). God never established that pastors or any other offices in the Church ought to be full-time or paid positions, or that other offices ought to be part-time, subordinate, or volunteer positions. Compensation is based on contract (mutual consent), not spiritual office (divine authority).
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C, People need to understand giftings and abilities. God made us who we are, first and foremost to glorify Him. You can’t do that sitting in a pew. But, I would also say that some are gifted to teach and some aren’t. Some are gifted to lead and some aren’t, Some are gifted to encourage and some aren’t. That is what is great about all the “parts of the body”.
Alan, I agree that the people is church, so the church will have issues. We have to be able to hold each other accountable though and we need to keep ourselves accountable as well.
Pawel, thanks for joining in. Are you saying that nothing should exist unless God established it? or does that just go for the church?
If the church can afford to pay the Pastor, and the pastor is taking is doing his part..YES..God does provide, and sometimes HE provides through the people sitting in the church..not saying they should be rich…but that they should be comfortable..my two cents
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Darla, I guess technically I could say…I accept your two cents
Brent, when I say ‘framework’ I’m thinking more of being organized. I see a difference between being organized and being an organization. Where does ‘institution’ fall in the spectrum? closer to the organization end of things.
The last church I attended claimed to be doing it right (==God’s way) because all the churches that the pastor had been part of were doing it wrong. The only thing I see markedly different about this church is that the music is what the pastor likes, and the messages are what the pastor wants to talk about. Other elements are essentially the same (especially the ways they are missing the mark).
Responses as I read your answers to my questions:
“Our weekend service however is focused to be more outreach”.
Two terms – loaded with issues. Service and Outreach. I heard an analogy once of the church treating new converts like they were newborn babies – and the church will feed them as long as they show up at the appointed time and place…otherwise, tough luck.
Agreed. There is no justification for owning a building, campus, or whatever. I’m glad your church has at least recognized the need to be better stewards of the physical plant.
The “last supper” was the feast of passover. It’s possible that Jesus meant “every time you eat” or “every time you celebrate the passover [remember that I AM the passover lamb]“. My point is more that the sharing of a meal (which implies significant time, resources, and planning) has been reduced to a symbolic gesture (unless you’re catholic) rather than the more literal interpretation. It’s more assembly line/streamlined these days – no matter what form “the elements” take.
The doctrine of the tithe (esp. to be paid to the institution) is really a product of the institution itself. In the Law, the tithe of your agricultural products were to be brought to the temple where everyone ate together (I believe that is the biblical justification for the pot luck supper!). Every third year the tithe (again of your crops) was to be given over to feed the Levits, the aliens, the fatherless, and the widow (that’s where I got 33%). I agree, it should be the people doing the tithe – and none of it should go to the institution (or its upkeep).
Although I’m glad to see that your local church doesn’t do many of the things I point out, that doesn’t answer the question. Your fellowship would be the exception – not the rule – based on my experience. But I’d bet that there are quite a few within your fellowship that are ‘coasting’ within the system that you’ve setup. If I’m wrong – what a blessing! What % of participation do you have in all of the ministries of your church based on its membership (if you even count heads at all)? Maybe participation as a ratio of average attendance at outreach and inreach(?) services?
Groups of believers and their impact on the government and politics. There is no biblical precedence for any active participation at all within any form of government offered to us.
I’d still like to hear others’ thoughts – this wasn’t meant just for Brent…
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Bad, as I kept thinking through the “institution” thing, I understand more what you are saying and I would agree with your thoughts on “organization”. We’ve always said, here, that a church is not an organization it is an organism. it is people, it can’t be run by the details. So everything that’s done has to evaluated from that perspective.
Both of these terms can be packed full of issues, but I didn’t use these in that way. Our weekend gatherings (which is what we as a staff call them) are different that the other gatherings during the week. They are more “sit and listen”. The message and truth hasn’t changed, but we recognize that many people will be attending for the first time and many don’t have a clue of what they are waling into. Our weekends are plain and simple…different. The rest of our gatherings have been more purposeful to have one on one or discussion oriented teaching. Could we do that on the weekend? Sure, but we like the variety.
Is our weekend gathering outreach? No, but we understand that out of all the gatherings we have, the weekend will be the heaviest with people who don’t believe and those who are visiting. So, the thought process is different for us.
i’m encouraged that you’re fellowship has seemingly thought through some tough issues on tradition vs. change. Definitely we are an organism, and should be organized – but not to the point where the form becomes the object of worship. This, unfortunately, is the case in much of American/Western churches.
The key word you used this time…”thought”. That’s all I’m really seeking; is that people think rather than just buy into the same old, same old. Be a Berean!!!
badguy’s last blog post…Broken Things
It’s a constant evaluation to make sure that god stays in the forefront and our desires always take a back seat.
“Berean”
Funny story. When I lived in the LA area, we had a sister baptist church called Berean Baptist. Ummmm. They were anything but Berean. I used to hear people pick on them because of their name. They were the ultra, closed, conservative church in the area.
I found a link to this post from another discussion on Anne Jackson’s blog. I would say yes a pastor should be paid and I would reference the verses in Timothy. I personally have grown up in a pastors home and have been a full time youth pastor. I would love to know a logical explanation why anyone would believe that it is both scriptural and practical for a pastor to struggle or to have to sacrifice family time and personal time by having to work two maybe even three jobs to provide for their family and pay their bills because a church will not provide for their needs when they are providing for the spiritual needs of the people? The Bible is clear that if a man does not work, he should not eat. If someone says that being a pastor is not work, they are not only crazy and idiotic, but they have obviously not been a pastor. It is easy to throw the word hireling around, but we can not bend it and make it into what we desire the name to mean. A hireling is not someone who gets paid for being a minister. A hireling is a pastor or a spiritual overseer who’s motives are driven by the dollar, one who will only care for the spiritual needs of others by knowing he will be paid. Someone who does the job solely because they are receiving a paycheck. I know it is easy to have an opinion and to want to take a verse here and there to prove our point, but that would be inaccurate.
For those who are asking for a scripture here and a scripture there to outline every detail of our lives and every detail of what the church does, will never find them, and it is a waste of time and a pointless argument to demand such a thing. Sure some scripture is straight up and specific and then there is scripture that is not. Jesus taught in parables many times, I don’t see Christians living out the parables, but with each parable is a principle to live by and to function by. When was the last time someone cut out their eye because it caused them to sin? I mean really give me a break!
For those who do not feel the church is doing what it should, well I am sure you are right in many ways. The only perfect person was Jesus and sometimes I think he was foolish to hand over such a huge responsibility to sinful imperfect people, but it is usually the sinful imperfect people that he uses the most and it is usually those who think they have all of the answers and have it down just right that really bothers him (see the Pharisees, particularly in Matthew 23). I am sure there are areas that every church can improve upon, but you know, why do we put so much emphasis on those areas if Jesus is being preached? That would be a reference to Paul in Philippians 1. He said some were preaching Jesus for personal gain, but he was not going to complain, because JESUS was being preached. Are people being saved? Are people being loved on? Is Jesus being lifted up? Maybe not to some people’s high and lofty standards, but you know, Jesus didn’t say he was going to build his church on their standards, he said he was going to build it himself, and look who he started with, Peter! Of all the cussing sailors around! I am sure some here would have been screaming at Jesus that he was doing it wrong, but look where the church is today, institutionalized or not.
I currently work at a church for a job that is not the church where my family attends. I am in between youth jobs right now, but this church pays their pastor a very nice salary. I saw one sentence around the figure and it said, “so you will have no worldly care…” I think that’s the way the money thing should be. Provide for the man of God and the leaders and overseers of the church, if you don’t like it start your own church and lead the people for free, I am sure God would appreciate the discount!
…And I am sorry for my first comment on your blog being so long. I just started typing my thoughts on the subject and that’s where I ended.
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Nick, thanks for joining in!
I think there is a thought that if the Bible doesn’t say it we shouldn’t do it. But I don’t agree with that. I think you’ve spoken well to that as well.
I loved Paul’s attitude. He was interested first and foremost to people hearing the message of Christ and knowing Him a part from man’s religious rules and ideas. I like that.
An zero worries on the length. Have at it
Nick, Hi… You’re argument makes sense under the assumption that the role pastors play in the modern church is ‘right’. I think the opposite argument is based on the foundational hypothesis that the way we do church and the role that modern pastors take is not the best, most effective, or at least not the only way to do it.
Thinking outside the box leads to the conclusion that perhaps a full time salaried pastor with benefits is not the best way to do church… at least for a growing number of people.
I agree with Buddy. I think it would depend upon the oommunity. If that is the way that particularly community has been designed – a full time pastor with a part-time salary – then that would result in the unfortunate situation you suggest.
But what if a community decides they have no need for a traditional pastor? What if the community itself takes upon this role?
Currently I am attending a church where every month all aspects of the sevice are designed and built by a team of rotation volunteers. The benefits are that more people become involved, a much more diverse body of thought is experienced and the community actually comes to grow stronger through enhanced participation. (I would imagine this is not too different from Buddy’s simple church – correct me if I’m wrong here.)
That being said, we do have paid pastor, although she prefers the title ‘enabling minister’ – we are to follow Christ, not her ideas of God.
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Nick – thanks for the contribution to the discussion here. It is always good to have alternative perspectives brought out – it makes people think.
My stance on the application of scripture being the litmus test for whether we do anything is not based on “if it’s not in Scripture don’t do it”, it’s based on the historical evolution of an institutionalized structure that has little biblical basis (at least the biblical basis has been diluted and often lost) for what it has become today. Many people share the concern that what we know today as the institution of church, and its many ‘traditions’ are held more sacred than actual biblical truth – to the point that they are fatally flawed, broken, wrong.
Nick – your caveat is telling and supports this assertion: “why do we put so much emphasis on those areas if Jesus is being preached?”
that is my point – I’ve been to too many churches where Jesus is not being preached. Period.
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“I guess you would have to define a Pastor and their role first, but I don’t have time to do all that.”
Pity. . .
That would seem to be very worthy of serious consideration, but that’s just baed on my opinion after having visited countless ‘church’ sites where almost everyone on staff is a pastor (Pastor of ‘Administration’? – what, ‘paper’ sheep?). Then there is the annoying (at least to me) complete lack of listing credentials/curriculum vitae, part of the larger issue of the same sites having no stated doctrine, or their doctrine buried three levels deep beneath the ’sans scripture’, bland, Peter Druckeresque ‘vision/values/what we believe’ statements designed for ’seekers’ who are by nature uncomfortable with any statement preceded or followed by actual scripture references.
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Dan, it has already been considered. Paul has spoken to it very nicely. You misunderstood my statement. I did not want to take time and type out what Paul has already spoken to.
Possibly, but I tend to understand words for what they say. You chose not to define what you said you supposed “would have to” for your question about a pay check to be fully understood. I sure hope everyone who commented knew those things ‘already stated by Paul’.
And actually I was getting to a larger issue that you either chose to bypass or don’t want to discusss. I probably broke a rule or something
in not sticking to the paycheck thing. Noticing other comments in here I don’t think I did.
Dan Cartwright’s last blog post…Perspectives of Evangelism – Death and Judgment
Dan I read through your comment, but I am in a place to leave short blurbs right now, so don’t really have proper time to address.
But I am assuming your concern os over churches that have “Pastor’s” that don’t either qualify for that position or don’t belong in it? and also then, many churches don’t clarify what their stance on what a Pastor is?
Maybe you could clarify a bit mor for me.
thanks.
Not exactly. . . maybe I’llblog it at my place…..
Dan Cartwright’s last blog post…Perspectives of Evangelism – Death and Judgment